Closer and closer

[shazsha]

WM, I'm not going to square the EU question for you but I will attempt to explain my own viewpoint.

Although I'm voting Yes I don't want my country to be totally independent of every other nation and don't believe, to be successful we could be. We would still need imports, exports, expertise of other countries, etc.

Really!

So what sort of independence do you really want?

It is independence from England isn't it? That is the driving force. Being dependent in any other union is a secondary choice. Be brave, come out and say what you really want.

I have said what I really want but, to clarify things for you, I'll say it again! I want a government that will put Scotland first. I want a government that is chosen by the people of my country.
I find it interesting though that a lot of people think Independence is only about breaking away from England. They tend to forget we'll also be breaking away from Wales and NI. To me that seems as if they believe that England is the UK instead of just one country within it.
However I also recognise a WMW and my Scottish foot may be tempted to meet with his English @rse if he continues trying to bait me

[Workingman]

I'm not going to square the EU question for you but I will attempt to have said what I really want but, to clarify things for you, I'll say it again! I want a government that will put Scotland first. I want a government that is chosen by the people of my country.

But you do not mind that a government chosen by the people will lead you into another union, one far more restrictive than the current one? C'mon, square the circle.

However I also recognise a WMW and my Scottish foot may be tempted to meet with his English @rse if he continues trying to bait me

He will continue.... and he's too fleet for your boot to connect. Go on, square the circles.

[shazsha]

But you do not mind that a government chosen by the people will lead you into another union, one far more restrictive than the current one? C'mon, square the circle.

Lead us into? We are already there! As part of the UK we are already part of the EU and will remain so until 2016 even with a Yes vote. However, if we get a Yes vote and become part of the EU as iScotland , we'll be doing so with a government that is solely representing us and not three other countries too.

I've said before that I don't believe that any country can be successful without working alongside others. We need other countries for imports, exports, etc. As an Independent nation we may even have to trade with England However we don't have to share a government with other nations like we do at present. Can I square your circle? Probably not. But I can decide that my country would be better off with a government which is solely working for Scotland's good.

ETA-you may be too fleet to avoid my foot but can you dodge a Glasgow kiss

[saundra]

i really dont know anything about it
but i wish england could be england again free from euro land stupid rules to much mass immigration and such free to just trade with the world
and a goverment that cares
and i like scottish people
and i married a welch man

[KateLMead]

So true Saundra.

[Aggers]

I find it interesting though that a lot of people think Independence is only about breaking away from England. They tend to forget we'll also be breaking away from Wales and NI. To me that seems as if they believe that England is the UK instead of just one country within it.
However I also recognise a WMW and my Scottish foot may be tempted to meet with his English @rse if he continues trying to bait me

A lot of people do think that is is about breaking away from England because England is, and has always
been, the principle country in the Union, as it was in the British Empire, and is now in the Commonwealth.

[medsec222]

I am not sure that people do think that Scotland is breaking away from England per say. I think the concern is the dismantling of the UK as a whole.

[Suff]

Let me see if I can square the circle for you WM. It’s good to get it out and understand it.

So we have a new commissioner. That is an English commissioner, euroskeptic, placed by a Tory government elected by the English.

This is not really what the Scots want. So if they leave they get direct control over what that representation is. Most Scots have a better relationship with Europeans than the English do so it is unlikely that this English representation to the EU is what most Scots want.

So why not vote for a government which represents Scots in the world, rather than a government which represents English views as part of the EU.

Now let’s look at influence. Scotland has less than 10% of the MP’s in Westminster. That means Scotland has 1/10th of the influence on EU affairs than England does through the Union.

So let’s say that Scotland secedes and takes up its place in the EU. Then it will have 1/29th of a decision on EU affairs. OK we know that the top 5 have much more influence than the smaller countries. But, again, Scotland is not a smaller country but an intermediate country with scarce resources the EU want. So let’s say they have 1/15th say on EU events as opposed to the 1/5th the UK wields.

Now let’s do the math. 1/10th of 1/5th is 1/50th of a decision on EU affairs. As opposed to even 1/29th or 1/15th in, say, influence if not in decision power.

Also Scotland will have a veto to wield on its own. So, out or in, Scots win with independence. But England loses. If anyone thinks that Scotland won’t veto any proposal from England, in the EU, if it is damaging to Scotland; think again.

This is what Shaz is saying. Repetition of a position is not proof of the legitimacy of the position. That goes for both sides of the debate.

[Suff]

A lot of people do think that is is about breaking away from England because England is, and has always
been, the principle country in the Union, as it was in the British Empire, and is now in the Commonwealth.

All true. However if England didn't act as if the others didn't really matter, from time to time, then the Union would work a lot better. But they do. So, the consequence, a vote on Independence.

[Suff]

I am not sure that people do think that Scotland is breaking away from England per say. I think the concern is the dismantling of the UK as a whole.

Not the Scots problem. Scots just have to decide who they are and who they want to be. What the rest of rUK does in the wake of that is the problem for rUK. Assuming that Scotland goes indepenedent.

However if the UK is dismantled, the Englilsh politicians might want to think back over how they have behaved in the last 100 years. It was theirs to lose, as the saying goes. If the Scots feel that they are better off out of one of the strongest and oldest Unions in the world, then the English have a hell of a lot of reconsidering to do.

Yet, all this is being put on the Scots. Yet more reson to vote Yes. They have asked for nothing more than the right to determine their own future. You might want to consider how Tories have reacted. They want to sack Cameron for and I quote, "allowing the scots to have a referendum on self determination".

Allowed? What are the Scots? Slaves? The UK has signed up to all those wonderful UN charters and has constantly pushed for democracy and self determination throught the world.

Allowed?

And just exactly what kind of Union is that which takes this attitude?