The debate

[Workingman]

That's it, that is the only thing the Scots are being sold, the first chance in over 300 years to pick their own ruling elite from their own kith and kin. It tugs at the heart strings, it really does.

What they are not being told is that their new ruling elite will form an unbreakable alliance of socialists and neo-socialists hell bent on the creation of a socialist heaven in Alba - Scotopia.

Current state of play:
SNP (Social Democrat) 65
Labour (Socialist) 38
The Rest (Mish-mash of Tories, LibDems, Greens, Independents, Non-aligned) 25

Unless there is a tectonic shift, politically, at some time in the future, Scotland will be ruled by the SNP, Labour or both together. Is that what the Scots really want?

[Suff]

No you are quite right, they don't.

But, again, Scots need to find out who and what these socialist idiots are on their own. Put Westminster in the mix and they'll never clue in.

They have a vote and have a better track record of using it than the English...

It'll be interesting to see.

[shazsha]

That's it, that is the only thing the Scots are being sold, the first chance in over 300 years to pick their own ruling elite from their own kith and kin. It tugs at the heart strings, it really does.

I don't think it is, WM. I, for one, intend to vote yes, but I'm not doing it so my own kith and kin become our rulers. I'm doing it because I think it would be best for Scotland.

I've watched a lot of programs and have read quite a bit about what Independence would mean for Scotland and have decided that is what I want.

People seem to think Scotland is solely reliant on North Sea oil but that just isn't true. Yes, it would help, but even without it I think we would have a thriving economy.

As for passports, driving licenses,etc-I really don't think they'll be major problems. The Irish seem to manage well enough with licenses and passports-they manage to drive and travel freely so why would it be any more of a problem for the Scots?

As for who will rule us-that remains to be seen but I would gladly take my chances with a government that is elected by the people of my country( as opposed to the last election where the Tories/Lib Dems got practically no seats in Scotland but now rule over us.

As for the EU- I find it strange that people keep mentioning we won't be a member state as if it's the end of the world and yet a heck of a lot of these same people would vote to leave the EU themselves if they had the chance. I'm also quite sure that the EU would let us in if we chose to opt for that.

I would personally love to see Scotland being an Independent nation but I very much doubt it's going to happen. I expect to wake up on the 19th September to find I'm still a citizen of the UK, and will just have to accept that.

[Suff]

Pretty much my take too shaz.

I console myself that my vote and mrs s vote cancel each other out.

[Aggers]

I sometimes wonder - does it really matter who wins?

[Suff]

Remember how angry the English were when the Scots, who had their own assembly, interfered in English only issues in Westminster.

Imagine that going on for 300 years, powerless to stop it.

Honestly, it matters.

Before Blair, it was recognised that Scotland was at risk of leaving the Union. It was bad enough with the Thatcher years where she used Scotland as the proving ground for policies she wished to apply to England. But, after a crushing defeat in Scotland, we got Major. Wedded to the Thatcher policies, determined to change the Scots landscape to the English mode. The Scots hade done their best, they voted out all but one Single Tory MP in Scotland. Then got more of the same.

Then Scots got an assembly. But the strings were still too tight. Everyone recognised that a Lib/Lab coalition was just tied to Westminster politics and would bend over and hand the Vaseline over every time Westminster thumped the tub.

What the assembly did do was show the Scots that we did have politicians who could run a budget, we did have people who could run the country. That it would not be a leap in the dark. Blair took the usual path. That of delaying and lesser impact. He could have simply ignored the calls for the assemblies, but I'm sure Brown clued him in on the very real dangers of that. So, in the end, he handed the SNP the tools to power and a referendum.

I'm sure that many Scots have not forgotten that the Assembly (whether they call it a government or not), is under the sufferance of Westminster. Westminster, as the senior party, could decide to recall it. As they did in Stormont.

The Union is no longer healthy. The relationship is abusive on both sides. At some time it must either change or lead to a divorce. I can't see it changing so I'm firmly in the divorce camp.

Time will tell. But I will say this. The 22 point lead of early August is down to 6 points. The undecided are easing their crotch and coming off the fence. Almost all of them are going independence. There are still more than 6% undecided.

It's going to be very close and in the words of one "No" supporter. "It will come down to the turnout on the day and the Yes voters are going to come out 100%". She was fatalistic about the polls. I'm sure Salmond does not want a poll which shows a Yes lead. Because some Yes voters may choose not to vote. So long as it stays close and looks like it's possible, every Yes vote will be counted.

BTW, it's already begun. My son dropped off his postal vote on the way to work on Saturday.

[Workingman]

Aggers, It certainly does matter.

If Scotland goes independent Westminster is reduced by 59 seats. As things stand Labour would lose 40 seats, LibDems 12, SNP 6 and the Tories 1. The probable outcome would be a Tory government in rUK forever more. Unless the Boundary Commission steps in no coalition, of whatever make up, would be able to beat the Tories.

Under devolution the Scottish parliament can temper the excesses of any UK government, of any party. If Scotland goes independent it will be a socialist state forever more, and If anybody knows how to bugger up a good economy it is socialists, neo-socialists and communists. There are plenty of examples to choose from.

There is a strange form of schadenfreude brewing here. An "independent" Scotland marches off into the sunset to join the European Union and the Euro. Meanwhile, back in rUK with a marginalised rLabour, the Tories discover that their Eurosceptic wing is larger than thought. Bolstered by the few UKIP MPs the decision is made to hold a simple In/Out referendum on Europe..........

[Workingman]

For anybody who is interested: There is a 'Question Time' style debate on ITV1 this evening from 10:40 pm.

[Suff]

For anybody who is interested: There is a 'Question Time' style debate on ITV1 this evening from 10:40 pm.

Grrr, can't get ITV1 but I can get STV and it was on 9:30 and I've missed it.....

[update] Ah yes I can get ITV. I'm watching it. But I've also seen the outcome of the STV analysis. I'd like to compare them.

[Suff]

There is a strange form of schadenfreude brewing here. An "independent" Scotland marches off into the sunset to join the European Union and the Euro. Meanwhile, back in rUK with a marginalised rLabour, the Tories discover that their Eurosceptic wing is larger than thought. Bolstered by the few UKIP MPs the decision is made to hold a simple In/Out referendum on Europe..........

Yes there is.

Also Cameron hinted that Scotland leaving would be really good for him. He says he doesn't want it to happen, but then he puts the No campaign in the hands of Labour.

Building deniability? As for drifting to EU exit? That is on a path which is almost as certain as the Scottish Yes campaign. Close but not there. Ringed by wilful misinformation on all sides. Possibly good for the UK, but a "leap in the dark". A Scottish exit might precipitate a UK exit, which might precipitate a Scottish exit along with it.

Highly interesting outcome. Is it any wonder that the EU is intervening? That countries all over the world are dipping their oar in? A UK EU exit would have ripples all over the world. The fact that it almost certainly would mean the UK is, eventually, better off; just means that the UK is paying the price to give comfort to the rest of the world.

This is EXACTLY the same message the Yes campaign is pushing for Scotland to exit the UK.

Listening to the debate, the biggest argument, which is going to sway the most people, is that Scotland needs to be in control of it's own resources because the United Kingdom, as it stands today, does not give Scotland the full benefits of it's own resources which are, as stated, dwindling.

There is an awful lot of FUD going on right now. What I would like to see is some final answers to the questions asked. All are being twisted.