Wondering about the timing of the referendum

[Aggers]

Phew !!!

I feel out of my depth here.

I think I'll just sit back and let things take their course.

[Suff]

but to hate "the English", as some appear to do, baffles me.

Sadly it doesn't baffle me. Attitudes hardened in Scotland during the 80's and have never really softened. Many of these people won't forgive the Tories for the things done in the 80's till the day they die and will ensure that their children think exactly the same way.

My BIL is still, to this day, proud that he once owned a piece of Wembley turf and thinks there was nothing wrong with that....

What people in England need to understand is that there has been a massive imbalance in relations with Scotland and England for a very long time. That the Scots feel they have no choice but to knuckle under and do what England wants when the English are "of a mind". That does not make for friendly relations especially when the English think it was a good thing.

Also what the English need to understand is that the press are, as usual, targeting the hard attitudes for a quick sound byte in the news. They don't care that they are inflaming the English which causes comments in return and in the same ratio as English to Scots. Those English comments then drive moderate Scots, who also are part of that grievance, to more extreme attitudes.

Simple dismissiveness of Scots, who, let's faced it, took over the English throne and have a lineage going back before an England existed, causes an out of proportion response in Scotland. They can't see that the English call Geordies thick or are dismissive of Scousers or treat cockneys as if they are somewhat less intelligent due to their banter. England is rife with dismissiveness. Scots only see one side unless they have lived in England or been in the Army mixing with the English.

But, as I have said above, it may not be the Scots who have to come begging for money.... Of course your faithful reprobates will never tell you the truth of the matter. That you would have to find out for yourselves.

But, imagine this. You're living in your country quite happily in a unification of states. You're not rich and you see the other state getting richer and people becoming fantastically rich there. Then someone tells you that you have been given a raw deal. That the rich state is taking your money and, quite literally, pissing it up the wall.

If you believe it and then are told you have a vote to do something about it, you're going to do what exactly??

[Suff]

but it looks as though he actually wants us to thrown him out on his ear. His wish will be our command.

No, No, you see you don't understand. He wants you to understand his position, accept it and then, like good little boys and girls, vote him back in so that he can continue with his agenda.

Of course he's so far up his own jacksie that he can't see the truth that the "boys and girls" are actually intelligent adults and that they understood his message and think he's a dick. So, come the day, they'll bury him and his ideas with him.....

Just like in the EU elections. I mean we've heard about the Labour manifesto being "The longest suicide note in the history of politics", but these Lib Dems actually seem to be proud of offering the wrong thing at the wrong time in the wrong place and being booted for it.

I listened to the Lib Dems talking about how Britain lost it's hardest working MEP's and replaced them with a bunch of UKIP clowns. What they were not listening to was that we don't want MEP's working hard for the EU. We want MEP's working hard to get the UK OUT of the EU.....

This whole thing with Scotland is not over by a long way. I estimate there are about 8% of the voters who are voting for it purely for the chance that they may be out of the EU, no matter how briefly, which will give them a chance to stay out of the EU. If Cameron were to ally with UKIP, he could buy those votes and the Yes vote would be buried..... After all he needs someone to keep him honest on the EU and he needs the UKIP in a coalition to keep his EUphile back benchers in line....

Another day another dose of cynicism

[shazsha]

As for the remark by Aggers, I have noticed a hardening of attitudes in England, and from my POV that is down to some of the rather more spiteful, even hateful, remarks by some Scots. I can well understand how they might hate Parliament and Westminster and politicians in general, but to hate "the English", as some appear to do, baffles me.

WM, I could honestly say the same in reverse and I think many Scots feel this way. When I read many websites that carry comments by the readers I am always amazed at the spiteful, hateful remarks made by some English folk and how some of them appear to hate "the Scots". Perhaps on each side of the border we see a different perspective?

Aggers I can appreciate why you're bowing put....a heck of a lot of the facts are beyond my understanding. However I have learnt that Scotland isn't quite the poor country I believed it to be for years. I used to believe the Barnett Formula gave Scotland any riches we had but after reading a lot, inspired by Suff, I've come to see that we aren't really the poor nation feeding from the rich relative's table and we could go it alone.

I'm still not sure how the vote will go for Independence-I'm personally hoping it will be "Yes" vote but, in all honesty, I don't think the Yes campaign is doing enough to get the facts out there and many Scots are believing what they are reading/seeing in the media which is obviously supportive of the No campaign.

[Suff]

It's a funny thing what we know and what we learn. I had to relearn a lot of history concerning England and Scotland. Bias you might say.

Well let's try this one then. We all know about King John and the crown jewels he lost. So what about Prince john of Anjou and the Angevin treasure, which was the true wealth of the Plantagenet kings. Which, interestingly, John never was able to claim and Prince Philip II of France looted from Chinon Castle when he took it following the split of the Anjou line after the death of Richard the Lionheart.

Funny thing history. Tends to change depending on where you are and who tells the story.... It's quite likely that what is supposed to be lost in the Wash was no more than the trappings of the Throne of England, which was a small part of the Plantagenet treasure. The true historians know the truth, but funnily you never hear of it.

Very similar with England and Scotland. The more truth you inject the more unhappy people become.

[Workingman]

And there was me thinking it was a Scottish Monarch. James VI &1, with his Union of the Kingdoms, who wanted a single parliament instead of one in Scotland and one in England, to rule his new idea: the Kingdom of Great Britain. How ironic, in present day terms, that it was the English Parliament that thwarted him. Not that the Stuarts gave in. They tried again under Charles II and again under William and Mary until, eventually, his granddaughter, Queen Anne, the last of the Stuart dynasty, oversaw the Acts of Union.

How different things might have been if James VI had ruled from his native Scotland instead of decamping from Edinburgh to London and only returning the once.

[Suff]

Ah James VI. Crowned at 13 months, ruled by regents, at war with his mother, until his formal take over of the crown. No real love of his Scottish courtiers who sought to control and influence him.

England represented power and money and a way out of his relationship with his Scots controllers. His coffers in Scotland were never well stocked. It may have been his vision to merge the two countries, but it was never the vision of the people. They just did as they were told.

I wonder if it will be the other way round this time???

[Suff]

I wonder how many people haxe worked out that Scotland, independent in th EU will have 1/29th of a vote. Today it has 1/4 of 1/28th of a vote. And they will have their own commissioner, own mep's and a seat on council. Just exactly as the UK does.

The main advantage to the Scots is that the rest of the EU will not be aligned against them.
Food for thought.

[Workingman]

Putting aside that an 'Independent' Scotland in the EU is oxymoronic...

Scotland in the EU is not such a shoo-in as many like to think. There are already legal arguments as to which articles of the TEU will apply, if any. The most common reported are Art's 48, 49 and 50 and none offer the perfect fit.

Scotland will be a first-of-its-kind test case, and the legal wrangles could run and run..

Spain, with Catalonia, and Belgium, with the Wallonia/Flanders questions will not want Art 48 to be used. Croatia joined via Art 49 and will be obliged to enter the Eurozone - as could happen to Scotland. Art 50 allows for a state to withdraw from the EU.

If Scotland votes "No", and if the Tories win the next GE, and if we get Dave's referendum, and if we vote to leave, then a future independent Scotland would certainly have to apply to join the EU with all that entails.

Talk about a mess!

[Suff]

Talk about a mess!

Isn't it just.

But, you can't deny. Should Scotland secede and should Scotland get the bulk of NSO revenues and should Scoland be a "prize" that the EU don't want to lose, then the benefits are massive compared to being in the UK and the EU.

Just think. Do you really think the EU is going to give up rights to fish in all the Scottish fishing grounds? The largest fishnig grounds in the entire EU, fished by Spain and Italy among others???

The EU has a LOT to lose if they boot Scotland. Countries will suppoprt Scottish membership purely based on self interest.

And Salmond wants the Euro anyway which would solve a lot of problems for him. If the transition is done immediately Scotland could even avoid the whole 2 year currency thing because today their currency is the £ so they fall inside the rules. It all only comes apart if they decide to expel Scotland which, looking at it bluntly, is not in the interests of the EU.

If you think of it from the EU perspective, it could mean an opportunity to get more of the NSO revenues from the UK by making Scotland pay a higher subscription fee for it's re-entry as a country.

Win Win for the EU, just by keeping things essentially the same.

If they can talk about Germany exiting the Euro for a day, devaluing the Euro against the DM in that day and then Germany joining again; taking Scotland for more money is a snap isn't it? Scotland, after all, will be rich and have no deficit at all. In fact a huge surplus till Salmond starts hosing the wall down with it....

The more I think of this angle, the more I think everyone is barking up the wrong tree and that there are a whole lot of very scared politicians in England....