HS2 again

[cromwell]

The cost of building HS2 between London and Birmingham has now risen to £66 billion; and they were saying that the whole lot could be built for £105 billion? London to Birmingham, Brimingham to Manchester, Birmingham to Leeds? That was all rubbish, it seems to me.

HS2 trains will still run from Birmingham to Manchester, but will run on the existing West Coast main line. HS2 trains going from Birmingham to Manchester Piccadilly will only be 250 metres long, not the originally planned 400 metres long.

The combined effect of this is that HS2 will carry fewer passengers from Birmingham to Manchester, and in a slower train. This is because of using the existing line, which means that HS2 will only travel at 125mph on the straights - the same as an existing Pendolino train -and round the bends it will be limited to 115mph - which is slower than the Pendolino.

Who ever thought that this was a good idea?

[Workingman]

This bonkers scheme was originally sold to us at £37.5bn (2009 prices) for the whole lot: London - Brimingham - Manchester and Leeds. Without that massive (and possibly criminal) underestimate not one sod of earth would ever have been turned.

In a country whose major cities are only a stone's throw from each other it was never needed. Even the Leeds - Edinburgh (ECML) and Manchester - Glasgow (WCML) legs are only 170 miles long.

The money would always have been better spent upgrading the existing lines and their trains.

[Suff]

If you want a modern system you have to have a modern system. Not a 100 year old system bodged together to make a cludge.

Who took the Eurostar to Paris from Waterloo? Who has taken it from St Pancras?

That last leg into London was interminable. The link through Kent was slow. Calais is only 146 miles from Paris but Nobody would ever consider doing that route on the "traditional" line. It would be TGV all the way. Custom built lines for custom services.

This latest rise in cost is all due to the horrendous interest rates we had to suffer and 10% inflation. It has nothing to do with any additional overrun or extra things that need to be done. It just got more expensive.

If the crazies had left it alone and stopped trying to block it, half of it would have been done by now.

I have no tolerance for this attitude of "former glory" and trying to build on it. There comes a time to rip it all out and start again.

How many people are aware that half the switching gear around the country had to have the date wound back for Y2K because they couldn't "fix" them? That date reset is running out. Care to guess how many of them have been replaced with new Y2K compatible kit?

It ALL needs to go and we need to refresh everything with new.

[Workingman]

Calais to Paris as a standalone line, which London to Birmingham is, would never have been built. It is part of a pan-European network stretching from the Atlantic to the Black Sea and from Scandinavia and the Baltic to the Med - hundreds of lines covering tens of thousands of kilometres joining Capitals and major cities. Try comparing like for like, for once.

Also, the Inter-City 125 lines are not 100-years-old they are just as new as some of the older HS lines in Europe. A 125mph line for the 90 miles between Birmingham and Leeds is ample fast enough - and that's one of the longer stretches in England.

When it comes to costs, they were already rising out of control during the ~2.3% inflation years from 2008 (before HS2 was a "thing") to 2021; 13 years. Don't even begin to try to kid us that it is all down to the last few years.

I also have zero tolerance for supporters of this monster with their myths, legends and downright lies.

As for refreshing everything with new; where is the money coming from? The EV charging point pot? The Heat Pump pot? The solar panels everywhere pot? The onshore windmills pot? The pot hole filling pot? The NHS pot? Unless you failed to notice: the UK credit card is maxed out.

[cromwell]

I agree that if we did something like HS2, then it should have been done right, and not use existing track.
But the odds were always that this would be a mess.
The best benefit from a fast train is in a big country. We are a small country. The record of any rcent government for building infrastructure is pitiful. Thank God the Victorians built to last, because we are still using most of what they built.

[Suff]

France didn't start out with high speed lines everywhere. The West coast line ran high speed only to Tours. It took them 40 years to decide to extend it.

The point is you build the core capability then you extend it. If you never try you never gain anything.

The UK is over 900 miles lands end to John a groats, OK the major cities are much more closely packed, but London Edinburgh and Glasgow are in the 400 mile range. If you never even try to get out of London you're Never going to get those faster links elsewhere.

It is this introverted thinking which is holding the country back.

[Workingman]

Nobody ever mentioned running trains capable of 320kph on Inter-City 125 lines - that's fake news and a lie. Just to clear that up. What was mentioned was upgrading the existing lines in order for them to be able to take more modern and better equipped rolling stock. The two are not remotely comparable or similar.

Six of the biggest cities in England lie on a line between the Humber and the Mersey and there is not 50 miles between any of them. High speed those links if you can, but it would be a waste of time, money and effort. That's not introverted, it's sensible.

Edinburgh and Glasgow might be in the 400 mile range from London, but to get there you have to get past the North of England blockage making the 'real' open distance about 175 miles above Leeds and Manchester. Not worth an ultra-expensive dedicated HS rail line for a few passengers to save few minutes when the ECML, via Newcastle, and WCML, via Carlisle, can do the job perfectly well at 125mph.

GB / UK never "needed" HS rail; it needed (needs) modern trains with reasonable speeds. Very few people, if any, are going to go from Land's End to John O' Groats in one go. There are so many interesting places in between to stop off and visit.

"Modern" does not necessarily mean "super-fast" you know.