The Hunt Budget.

[Workingman]

I don't have a £1 million pension pot (soon to be £1.8m) and have never been able to put any tax-free £40,000 per year (now £60,000) into one, so the budget has done virtually nothing for me nor millions of others.

OK, I suppose the move to get those of us on pre-payment meters charged the same per unit as those on direct debit will help four milion people, but why should it cost the taxpayer £200 million (£50 per meter) to do so? And let's be honest, the 12 pence per day saving isn't going to make much difference to us end users.

The big splash is that the country will not go into "technical" recession, but will still shrink by 0.2%. Get the bunting out! Some will ask 'how can that be?' and the answer lies in the definition of "recession" - two consecutive quarters of negative growth. We can deflate in Q1 but rise in Q2 then do the same for Q3 and Q4 - up down, up down - so no "recession". Such a relief.

[miasmum]

I did shout if I had a spare £60k I wouldn't be putting it in my pension pot, I'd be flipping retiring.

[Workingman]

£60k gives me 15 years of my RAF pension at £4,000 per year- I earned it. It could be paid from aged 65 to 80, or more or less, by which time I will be gone - a pittance.

On top of that I made 45 years, plus, of NI contributions towards my OAP, it is not a benefit. I am a 'normal' or 'average' person so I get on well, but get sod all from this budget.

What I have never understood is why people "need" multiple £ millions. They don't spend it, it is locked away in the Caymans or invested to produce more £ millions for them. Poor people spend. We keep the GDP buoyant, not the rich savers - who don't spend.

[Suff]

And you don't think they pay tax on these investments? Of course they do. Any realised investment or interest carries a level of tax depending on your tax threshold.

Granted budgets should help to balance things out, but those who have managed to provide millions in pension do not just get away scot free with paying no tax. In fact the thousands in this position pay more tax, at pensionable age, than millions of people who are on pensions but draw additional benefit from the state.

Where would we be if they all decided that they were to leave the UK because it was so tax negative for them? All those millions on benefits might find themselves with less benefits or, worse, actually paying out.

There is always two sides to the coin.

[Workingman]

BH! Yes of course they pay tax on income derived from their pension pot, anybody "earning" more than £12,570 pa pays that, but to be able to build a pot, tax-free, at £60k per annum up to £1.8 million, should not be a problem for them, should it? Maybe it should be tax-free to help them out a bit!

Most of us do not get anywhere near that amount on our taxed income from a lifetime's full time work FFS!

Oh my, the wealthy, they are so hard done by, what!?

And if we are anywhere near the median wage we get little in benefits except for child allowance, and even millionaires get that. The gap between the haves and have nots just got wider when it needs to be closed. If that happened the country would not be paying out so much in in-work benefits to the JAMs.

[Suff]

I know the median and being on the line. I've lived it. I had to work my ass off to get out of it.

However I'm tired of the "just because you made money you are somehow stuffing it to everyone else".

26% of the people already pay around 90% of the tax levied from individuals. Just how much more has to go? Already we are almost at 50% of the population who pay no direct income tax and minimal NI.

What happens if the 26% decides they have had enough and leave taking their money with them???

I'm reminded of the story a friend of mine told me. It is fiction but is serves a point.

4 friends went for dinner once a week. They paid based upon their income. Meaning that the lowest paid never paid anything and the highest paid always paid more than half. One day the landlord said "you are such good customers I'm going to give you a discount back of 20%". Of course the most wealthy got more than half of the 20% back. The other two received their due. The last person then complained that they never got anything from this and it was not fair.

The richest of the party took offence and stopped coming to lunch. The next two richest went away and bought their own lunch and the poorest person went hungry.

That is where we are today. It gets a little wearying.

[Workingman]

Suff, you and I were fortunate to be able to climb the ladder.

Unfortunately the overwhelming majority in the UK have neither the intelligence nor the skills to do so. The average IQ in the UK is 100, which is bang in the middle of the average range of 85 -115. They are not likely to get anything more than semi-skilled work, and let us not forget that there are plenty more who are below average. £60k per year in their pension pots - dream on.

Moving on from where they are is a virtual impossibility for nearly all of them, so is building up any sort of work related pension pot. £1 million, do be brief. That is why I have some compassion for them.

[Suff]

Moving on from where they are is a virtual impossibility for nearly all of them, so is building up any sort of work related pension pot. £1 million, do be brief. That is why I have some compassion for them.

I have a lot of compassion for people who are stuck. But here is the thing. Grabbing another few % in taxes from those at the top of the ladder will never improve their lot. The government won't spend it on them.

When I left the Army, part qualified with minimal educational certification, I moved to a place in the UK where unemployment was 50% (real value). I know very well what it is like for those who struggle on benefits. Getting out of that rut requires a level of single minded determination and ruthless application. Mrs S often reminds me that we were happier poor. Because that level of change is dramatic and destructive. Oh it changed the lives of all the kids and for the better. But for us???

If those top few % are invested in pensions funds and the pensions funds invest in business and industry then those few % will result in jobs. Jobs for those with no hope and with little future. When the top 1% take this money without having to "avoid" punishing taxes, that money needs to work for them. Working money attracts more money and working money expands the economy and provides jobs.

It is the essential difference between Labour and Conservative. True Conservatives want the money to work to provide opportunities for everyone. True Labour want to crush the top 1%, take their money and throw it away in whatever way they want. Almost never does this money improve the general lot of those at the bottom of the ladder. Oh it will make it a little less crushing, but it will never give the opportunity to get out from under. Those will be left there forever.

True Labour doesn't like having rich people. True Labour wants to dismantle the economy and re-make it in their view and with them at the top. It didn't work well for the USSR did it?

I know that I come over as a fanboy for the Tories. I'm not. What I do find amusing is the reactions of those who also came out of that crushing poverty through progression in their jobs. Those who were radically Labour or even communist at the outset, who are "dramatically" unhappy about the level of taxation they have to pay when they breach the upper tax threshold. Suddenly realising that their pay rise vanishes in taxes and they will need 2-3 more pay rises to actually see a benefit.

That one was sweet to watch.

[medsec222]

The budget might have been better balanced if some thought had been given to raising the personal tax allowance. My own feeling is that nobody earning less than £15,000 should be paying income tax at all.

Maybe the personal tax allowance will be the rabbit out of the hat next time round. We can but hope.

[Workingman]

Meds, I was thinking the same. Unfortunately it has been frozen till, I think, 2028.

It is the one thing that helps the very poorest, even though the richest benefit as well. It is certainly better than the trickle-down economic nonsense.

Freezing the allowance will drag in 1.6 million of the poorest who will now pay tax. These lowest paid might not currently pay "income" tax, but they sure as hell do pay tax. They do not have the spare cash in order to save (£40K p.a.) so every penny they earn is spent, and in spending they pay VAT on most day-to-day things - lots of it.