Hand over your freedom - do it NOW!

[Workingman]

Tony Blair's think tank, as well as a few others, want us all to have a contact-tracing app on our smartphones because they could offer an "escape route" from the crisis.

Contact-tracing applications work by logging every person that a smartphone comes in close contact with another who also has the app - who also has the app!!! That's why we all need one. So, if one person is diagnosed with Covid-19, all those who are at risk can be notified automatically.

It's all good - so far.

But if someone, Bob, tests positive and symptomatic they should be isolated there and then, not let out to roam - this is (should) already be being done. The app could then, in theory, get in touch with all those Bob had been in contact with during the time it is 'thought' he might have been symptomatic. How long is that - hours, days? And during that time how many people did he come in contact with and how is 'contact' defined?

Bob is a decent bloke who is following the rules. He only went out to the supermarket during a quiet time to get some food. He was only close to about 20 people and only then for a few seconds, but the app has 'clocked' them all. The 20, and their households, go into lockdown and after testing everyone two of them are found to have the virus.... the process starts again.

So that could be 40+ tests just from Bob, and then 40+ more for each of his infected contacts. That's over 120 tests just from Bob, assuming nobody else gets the virus. If the virus is as infective as is presumed it only takes a few more ripples for the tests to be in their thousands. If there is a Bob in every area of the country we are looking at tens of,millions of tests, which is totally impractical.

There will be millions of people self-isolating or roaming about untested and worried sick that they might be infected because the 'app' said they had been in 'contact'. Panic, and God knows what else, would ensue.

There are times when we can have too much information. Also, tests are only valid at the time they are taken. Someone given the all-clear can catch it only hours after and not know. They then do a Bob....

The other big worry, probably more of a long-term worry, is when will these apps be deactivated - completely nuked? If that does not happen then we can be 'traced' forever and by agencies we are not even aware of. Sorry Tony, but I am staying app free.

[cromwell]

Me neither. However I think many people would, and would also be quick to vilify those who don't comply.
I know the applause for the NHS every Thursday is genuine and heartfelt; but I think it also shows that it might be easy to coerce the population in general to "do the right thing", whether it is actually right or not.
This is a process that has been going on for some years now imo.

[Workingman]

There is evidence that people are being named and shamed for not joining in the clap-in. Strange, I did not know it was compulsory. There wil be an element of "look at me - the victim" about some of it, but from what I have read in some comments sections there will be a lot of truth as well.

[Kaz]

You only need to look at 1930's Germany to see how easily people can be manipulated

[victor]

I Wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Bliars mouth if he said the Sun was shining I would have to check it for myself

[cruiser2]

I only use my smart phone for what I want to do.

I keep getting messages to download apps which I do not want so just delete them.

We do not go outside and clap. Why should we get up from watching TV or reading.
As for Tony Blair, my wife says Cherie Blair has a mouth like the Mersey Tunnel!!

[cromwell]

There is evidence that people are being named and shamed for not joining in the clap-in. Strange, I did not know it was compulsory.

See, to me this is key. It's how you treat the people who don't join in. Making it socially unacceptable not to join in is not on. We don't live in North Korea and I've certainly no wish to do so.
This whole crisis has displayed how easily people can be manipulated and to me it's been an uncomfortable thing.
We've had the clapping round here, OK no problem. But I don't know if any one else has had this, but we then had a suggestion that on Friday night people should go out and shine their torches into the night sky to remember all the people who had passed away during the epidemic?
I think some of this is a generational thing. Our generation(s) tend to be from a less demonstrative time.

[Workingman]

Our generation(s) tend to be from a less demonstrative time.

And, Cromwell, we were more questioning; just because somebody said something didn't make it true.

I think that a lot of it was down to the political tension between Soviet communism, Chinese communism and Western democracy of the time. We were given the tools to comprehend and analyse what the other sides were saying in order to be able combat them. The unintended consequence of that was that we also started to question our own side and its intentions, and that would never do, hence the work down the years to make us more malleable, more accepting.

I remember the days when an opinion had to be justified, not necessarily with facts because sometimes there are none, but definitely with good reasoning. And just because you had a differing opinion on one subject it did not mean that you could not share the same opinion as others on many other subjects.

Nowadays we live in a world of memes and group-think where if you are not with the game you are out - totally out. the NHS clap-in has become a good example.

[Suff]

The problem with the whole thing is that of South Korea. After Sars and Mers, they changed the law and allowed the government to track the mobiles of the whole population if a massive virus outbreak were to happen. This would mean that in the event of an outbreak they would be able to track and trace within hours, not days, weeks or months. Essentially making an impossible job just barely possible.

We can see the result. Allied to extreme isolation, decontamination, South Korea, which had a very large initial outbreak, simply ground to a halt.

So that is the upside. The downside is do you trust? Because if you don't and the governments of today make themselves very hard to trust, then you are unlikely to want to allow this level of intrusion into your life.

As for group think or meme? A friend and I were talking about how we responded to stuff. He turned to me and said "Yes but you were never a follower were you!". Today we are encouraged to be followers instead of the independent analysts that WM remembers we were encouraged to be. I remember it too.

There is a simple answer to this. If you don't like it, either switch your phone off or don't take it with you. Track that!

[cromwell]

The countries that have done reasonably OK in containing the virus are places that were affected by SARS. South Korea and Taiwan.
Europe and the States weren't affected and we were not prepared.
Hopefully we will be next time if there is a next time, but the structure and procurement of the NHS will have to change and it's management will not change willingly.