Change in tactics?

[medsec222]

Somebody else has been tied to a chair by all accounts Ossie - and that is Dominic Raab. Full steam ahead Theresa

[Kaz]

It never should have been called in the first place! I have never known this country to be as divided and anxious as it now is.

So, Kaz, you think that because the country is divided the majority, who do not want the EU, should not be offered the option to leave it?

Because you don't want to?

.

No! I think the country is divided because of the referendum. It's been like lifting the lid off of Pandora's box.

[AliasAggers]

[ I think the country is divided because of the referendum. It's been like lifting the lid off of Pandora's box.

That a good way of describing it, Kaz.

Leaving the E.U. is, without doubt, an extremely complicated procedure, which has been designed to make it so.

There are plausible arguments for both staying in or leaving the E.U., hence the present flood of strong comments, which perhaps are better unsaid.

[Suff]

No! I think the country is divided because of the referendum. It's been like lifting the lid off of Pandora's box.

Yes you are quite right, we should never have had to have a referendum now. We should never have been so divided, we should never have had to struggle so long and so hard to actually GET a referendum.

We should have had a referendum on the Maastricht treaty.
We should have had a referendum on the Constitution, regardless as to whether it was ditched or not
And we should have had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

All of the above dramatically changing our relationship with mainland Europe. The Maastricht treaty that created the EU in the first place. The Constitution which attempted to make it a country and the Lisbon treaty which was a half way house to making the EU a country.

Had we had a referendum on those, they would never have been and we would still be in the EEC, or we would have been thrown out for holding everyone back.

Instead we nearly had a political earthquake and the referendum was the price of political status quo. Go back and review how people were voting. The referendum moved from IF to WHEN at the time that Brown signed the Lisbon Treaty.

If you specifically want someone to blame...

[Kaz]

You seem determined to call me out over this Suff. I know which side of the fence I am on this, and it's certainly crystal clear where you are!

We shall see, over Brexit, but it won't be pretty.

[Suff]

You seem determined to call me out over this Suff. I know which side of the fence I am on this, and it's certainly crystal clear where you are!

We shall see, over Brexit, but it won't be pretty.

Sorry Kaz I'm not trying to "call you out" so much as to analyse the statement about how the referendum was, somehow, wrong.

This is a slippery slope. I very clearly remember Major telling us that we were joining the Euro and we were not getting a vote on it. We elected them to govern and they were, by god, going to govern and we could vote on it at the next election if we didn't like it.

After all we might have made the wrong choice and they know so much more than us... Really.

[Kaz]

But that's why we elect polticians! If we had a referendum for every decision they had to take on our behalf of would be chaos. As we are starting to discover.

[medsec222]

We had a referendum when we were invited to join the common market Kaz. It was sold to us as a single market trading arrangement only, despite it coming to light years afterwards that Ted Heath knew full well at the time it would eventually lead to a political union. Many people who voted to join the common market at that time, feel they were misled all those years ago. The EU has evolved drastically over the years from what it was in 1973.

So I think on this occasion, a referendum to either stay in or come out was justified. Quite obviously there was no preparation for a leave result as it was not the expected outcome, hence the mess we are in.

[AliasAggers]

We had a referendum when we were invited to join the common market Kaz. It was sold to us as a single market trading arrangement only, despite it coming to light years afterwards that Ted Heath knew full well at the time it would eventually lead to a political union. Many people who voted to join the common market at that time, feel they were misled all those years ago. The EU has evolved drastically over the years from what it was in 1973.

So I think on this occasion, a referendum to either stay in or come out was justified. Quite obviously there was no preparation for a leave result as it was not the expected outcome, hence the mess we are in.

That sums it up admirably, Medsec.

[Suff]

But that's why we elect polticians! If we had a referendum for every decision they had to take on our behalf of would be chaos. As we are starting to discover.

Nor would I recommend a referendum for "every" decision.

But some decisions are so large and so far reaching that it makes sense to have a referendum. Joining the EEC, leaving the EEC. Yes, absolutely.

Joining the EU as a Nation (Maastricht). Absolutely but we did not.
Remaining in the EU as a Member State (Lisbon), not a Nation. Absolutely, but we did not

So we had a referendum on leaving. That precedent was set in 1975 by the, then, Labour Government. It is not even anything new.

I submit that the chaos we are now experiencing is not a result of Having a referendum on leaving. But actually a result of NOT having a referendum on either Maastricht or Lisbon.

Also I'd like to quantify Chaos.

We don't have chaos, we have NOISE. We have a strong economy, we still, despite the fearmongering, have a strong £. Our strong businesses are getting stronger and our weak businesses are beginning to feel the pinch of the EU reduction in growth.

We don't have riots in the streets, we don't have high profile businesses collapsing, we don't have rubbish on the streets and we are not having general strikes and a complete halting of our economy.

I'd love to know what Chaos is. Apart from yet another round of chaotic predictions from the anti Brexit press and MP's . So far, apart from a drop in the £ driven by some uncertainty and by the daft actions of the BOE, we have not seen any real impact at all. Inward Investment is the highest in the G7. We were assured that investors would shun us, however inward investment in the UK grew by 4.4% last year, well ahead of inflation.

The spectator asks why good news is buried and wild assed guesses at bad news is splashed all over the press every day.

I must admit I ask the same question.

On our growth, I submit historical GDP growth.



If you want Chaos have a look at 1956 to 1980. Or just the financial crisis.