Double Standards

[AliasAggers]

The thing is that Brexit was (is) a nebulous and romantic idea for the UK to escape the evil EU empire, to control its borders and regain sovereignty, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - as a dream. The big problem is that there was no real plan for its execution, its implementation and what its final outcome will be. We are now in the process of making things up on the hoof and that puts us in the weakest of weak positions.

I think that we should be more positive about leaving the E.U., and tell them that we are leaving forthwith.
Surely, we don't have to go through all this stupid talking. What can they do if they don't like it? We are big
enough and strong enough to stand up to them. and we can surely survive and prosper without them.. I just
wish that Churchill was here now to lead us to victory. We want action now - not just talking.

Sod the EU, I say.

[medsec222]

I see Tony Blair is sticking his nose in again. Why can't he retire somewhere far away and spend his money.

[Suff]

The big problem is that there was no real plan for its execution, its implementation and what its final outcome will be. We are now in the process of making things up on the hoof and that puts us in the weakest of weak positions.

All my observances with the EU tell me that the more defined and fixed a plan you have and the more you communicate that up front, the more ammunition the EU has to break you with their fixed and intransigent position.

When the EU finally realises that we're not going to capitulate (assuming we are not), then a quick, flexible and "make it up as you go" approach is going to be much more viable.

Well that's how I see it. If we do capitulate, then it won't matter if we have a 10 page white paper or a 100,000 page bible; the EU will tell us what we are going to do and none or our own plans will matter.

There is nothing wrong with dreams. But it takes solid backup and tons of fortitude to realise your dreams against the wishes of the EU.

[Workingman]

If we do capitulate, then it won't matter if we have a 10 page white paper or a 100,000 page bible; the EU will tell us what we are going to do and none or our own plans will matter.

Ah, another glaring omission from the Leaver's book of being economical with the truth. I don't remember seeing that on the side of a bus.

I do remember that when Remain said something similar it was dressed up as Project Fear. How times change.

[Suff]

It was never the Leaver intention to capitulate. That attempt is being forced on us by the Remainers.

So it wouldn't be in the Leavers rhetoric would it. Boris encompasses that and he is still consistent to it today. "If they want €100bn they can go whislte for it". If we pay €100bn it will be down to Remainers MP's who are too scared, or too self centred, to do what needs to be done to execute a clean Brexit.

It was in the Remainers rhetoric because, in the case that we did vote for Brexit, they were absolutely going to capitulate and sue for terms as the loser.

[Workingman]

Interesting concept 'capitulation'. It gets introduced out of nowhere then argued against as if it is what everyone is talking about. It isn't. However, the fact that it is mentioned means that it is probably tucked away in the Leaver handbook small print in the Things that Do Not Exist chapter.

As for BoJo and "Go Whistle". What a mature and responsible way for one of our chief negotiators to act, and as for his consistency, it was only in April that he was saying we could have some form of free movement of EU citizens once we had Brexit.

[Suff]

The concept of capitulation has come from the EU negotiating tactics. Either do as we say or walk. It's not a negotiation, it is a statement of requirements and I, for one, do not require them.

As for Bojo and "some sort of free movement"? The WTO rules on free movement of people are what control virtually all of the 27 "free trade" agreements the EU have signed. I don't believe that is outside the remit of Leave. So telling the EU they can "go whistle" over a cash demand for €100bn per year, is for me, only responding in kind. The EU made a preposterous demand and we gave it the contempt it deserved.

That is how the UK works. It is not how the EU works. This should be a journey of discovery where both sides finally understand that they have fatally misunderstood each other.

[Workingman]

The concept of capitulation has come from the EU negotiating tactics.

Oh yes, of course, silly me. Only the Evil Empire would pull such stunts, we in the Isles of Angels would never stoop so low, which is why we call our non-negotiable demands' Red Lines', so much more refayned,

So to BoJo and his "go whistle" over a cash demand for €100bn per year. There is not a €100bn cash demand per year (per hour or per day, or per week or per decade) there is a one-off demand (cost unknown) for the UK to meet its responsibilities under existing treaties. Many Remainers and Leavers think that is reasonable. However, if the €100bn per year is spouted often enough it takes on a life of its own and that is what Leavers want - it might be coming to a bus near you.

WTO rules and 'free movement of people' is a misnomer. There is Mode 4 which allows WTO people to move freely from one member to another to carry out their work. It does not allow for people to seek access to the employment market in the host member, nor does it affect measures regarding citizenship, residence or employment on a permanent basis. It is not even remotely comparable to 'free movement' within the EU and under EU rules, but because the words 'free', 'movement' and 'people' can be found it can be passed off as being exactly the same: right? Wrong!

[Suff]

Sorry should not have added "per year", you are quite right, I believe they expect it to go on for a decade at around €10bn.

The EU are doing what the EU do, which is attempting to force capitulation. For anyone who was asleep during the financial crisis, they now have a good track record of this. If you read the detail of all the bailouts, the IMF called the EU on their dogmatic tactics every time but because each state insisted on self flagellation, the IMF went with it.

The only way to stop the EU from attempting to force you to capitulate is to tell them to "go whistle". A clear and solid negotiating tactic where we tell them what is acceptable and then leave it up to them to decide if they agree or not. Which, by the way, is what they are doing to us. So we turn it around and be ready to simply walk.

In the end it is the EU who will find it more difficult to weather the storm of a hard Brexit. People like to quote all these stats about how the UK is only x% of the EU and so on and so on. The reality is that the EU stands on a very finely balanced knife edge and has been doing so since the financial crisis. The UK is more than enough, in % terms, to tip the balance and cause some pretty unpleasant realities for the EU. The EU needs to avoid that and the only way they can is if we give in to them.

In fact, if we held true to ourselves, we would realise that we have a far stronger negotiating position than anyone but the Leave camp will admit to.

In reality, appeasing the EU is much like "peace in our times". Except the EU has a far weaker position, when truly challenged.

[Suff]

WTO rules and 'free movement of people' is a misnomer. There is Mode 4 which allows WTO people to move freely from one member to another to carry out their work. It does not allow for people to seek access to the employment market in the host member, nor does it affect measures regarding citizenship, residence or employment on a permanent basis. It is not even remotely comparable to 'free movement' within the EU and under EU rules, but because the words 'free', 'movement' and 'people' can be found it can be passed off as being exactly the same: right? Wrong!

This is exactly what I have been saying for over a year now and the EU carries on with it's total BS. Every one of the 27 "free trade" deals the EU has with other countries does _not_ have full free movement of people with the EU and under EU rules.

Yet the EU continuously and copiously continue to LIE and insist that there can be no free trade deal with the UK without applying EU rules and the ECJ.

I'm sure the holders of the 27 "free trade" deals will be closely monitoring the EU rhetoric. I'm also sure that when the EU try to negotiate a "free trade" deal with the US, they're going to get their teeth to play with over that one. Which will put a crimp in their whistling....