What are human rights anyway

[Suff]

So a UK grandmother goes to Bali with 150-200 thousand $ worth of cocaine stitched into her case.

She goes to trial and is sentenced to death even though the prosecution only asked for 15 years.

The UK FCO finds her a lawyer with the requisite skills for her appeal, willing to do the work "pro bono" but will need £2,500 to cover costs of flying out there and representing her. The UK FCO does not have funds for lawyers.

So what happens? The UK Government is being taken to court to force them to give her the "human rights" she's "entitled" to.

My take on this? Instead of spending a small fortune taking the UK Government to court, take a very small part of that money and give it to her (and every other person in this situation for the next decade), to support her case.

My position on this? You take drugs to countries who are really serious about stamping it out, get caught, get sentenced to death. Die with some dignity and accept that you made the most stupid and final mistake in your life.....

She's never going to leave the country alive. They don't want to keep her.

If you don't know the laws of a country, then don't go doing something which is illegal in every country in the world. If you get caught, don't complain.

Were it my sister I'd be doing a charity fundraiser on justgiving to try and raise the money. Or just pay it out of my pocket. I wouldn't be shouting about how it's everyone else's fault.

Maybe I'm just a real B'stard and have no heart.....

[debih]

Maybe I'm just a real B'stard and have no heart.....

Well if you are, then so am I as agree with every single word you said.

[Kaz]

Ditto. This woman is from my part of the world and is hardly a wide-eyed innocent grandma abroad - she has a petty criminal record as long as your arm.........

I think they will execute her, I am not happy about that really as I don't support the death penalty, but you should respect the laws of any land you go to - and if you break them should expect to be treated the same as the locals

[Workingman]

I am not sure about the human rights issue.

Does she have a right to life as a human right even though she is a convicted drugs smuggler? In the UK, yes; in Indonesia, apparently not. When in Rome.....

Does she have a human right to have her side of the story tested and verified. I think she does. Yes, I know that they all claim to have been duped into being couriers, see the Peru girls, but in order to apply a death penalty surely the facts have to be established beyond doubt?

[Suff]

Second appeal failed.

It's hardly like they are convicting her and taking her out back to shoot her.

Whether or not, this is not the fault of the UK government.

[Workingman]

Fault of the UK, No!

But doesn't a country have a duty to establish facts in defence of its citizens abroad? If not, why do we carry passports?

[TheOstrich]

Not sure it does, TBH, WM. In any event, passports are no more than an ID card these days.

Why should we want (or need) to second guess the Indonesian judicial system? She has been found guilty of a particular felony which is a crime virtually everywhere across the world in civilised society; the only difference is the outcome.

Are you arguing here that the facts in this case are not "beyond doubt", that she hasn't received a fair trial?

[KateLMead]

As we saw the other two Brits I believe got away with their crime, If you have the money to grease the right palms the crime becomes secondary..
I hope the woman rots there, as I hope the two idiot females who tried to smuggle drugs face a long term of imprisonment. There was a time when showing a British (English) passport overseas, one was greeted with the utmost respect.. Not any more and when we look at the behaviour of young men and women, and the not so young I quite understand why..

[Workingman]

Are you arguing here that the facts in this case are not "beyond doubt", that she hasn't received a fair trial?

No. What I am saying is that her defence has had to be carried out in a foreign language, a language she does not speak or understand. The nuances of such a foreign language, as with English, might even be lost on a UK interpreter and could lead to a misinterpretation of what is being said.

It is essential, especially where a death sentence could be passed down, that the defendant has the very best defence possible. And, yes, I do believe that the State has a duty to provide that assistance.

If it was a family member of mine, in such a situation, that is what I would expect, and I dare say that is what all of us would want.

[Suff]

If my bags had been interfered with and they had drugs in them, or if I'd been in the area of a murder and was being set up, yes I'd expect some help too.

However, on the other hand, if I'd stitched drugs into the lining of my case and tried to courier them into a country which had serious drugs laws which carry the death sentence, I wouldn't expect my country to provide me with defence after defence after defence. I'd expect to get the book thrown at me.

I'm sure that the courts are taking her age into account in this. She is old enough to know far better. Had she been 40 years younger, they might have been a lot more lenient.

To be honest, I don't believe that the severity of the punishment should warrant ever increasing efforts to try and "get the person off" or even to reduce the punishment. Not in such a clear cut case. If it is the rule of the country that you suffer the death penalty for something, then you don't do it. That is why they have the penalty in the first place. Personally I agree with that. I know many don't but then it's not our country.

I don't believe in people subverting the British justice system just because they don't agree with it and I won't apply a different standard to another culture, just because it is much more severe in the treatment of criminals.