Talking heat pumps

[Suff]

Again.

Just saw a video of a guy who wanted to know what the implications of a heat pump were in his home. It's a bit long winded for me but it does explain about the radiators and pipes plus the potential with hot water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4xmYNMhJt4

Right at the end he talks about the story that air source heat pumps don't work in winter. I looked that up. Sweden had 1.9m heat pumps installed in 2019 of which 1.3m are air source. Sweden has a population of 10m and 4.8m homes. Hard to say air source heat pumps don't work in winter if they work in Sweden.

[cromwell]

I've seen various videos Suff. Some say that heat pumps will work, others say not.
The sticking point is likely to be cost.
Decommissioning the gas boiler, paying for the heat pump and then paying for new radiators (the ones we use for gas ch won't get the full benefit out of the heat pump) and you're looking at what, £15-20,000?
No one is getting too worked up about it yet, but it is going to be very controversial imo.

[Workingman]

I love the Comedy channel, there is some good stuff on there, That was one of the poorer offerings, but still good for a laugh.

I also like the Scandi passive house, combined heat and power plants and district heating systems we do not have here. They also have the highest rates of thermal efficiency on the planet. We, on the other hand, have mile upon mile of Victorian, Edwardian and inter war years stone or brick built terraced housing built to be heated by our plentiful supply of coal, at that time - no comparison.

I would love a link for the 1.9 million and 1.3 million figures for 2019 installations. This article suggests that there are not many more in total. BTW the article is very much pro heat pumps.

Or this...

[Suff]

I would love a link for the 1.9 million and 1.3 million figures for 2019 installations.

In 2019, Sweden had approximately 1.9 million heat pumps in operation, of which, roughly 1.3 million were aerothermal heat pumps. In the same year, the 28 European Union members had approximately 40 million heat pumps in operation.

Statisia aren't pro anything they just sell stats and analysis.

[Suff]

I've seen various videos Suff. Some say that heat pumps will work, others say not.
The sticking point is likely to be cost.
Decommissioning the gas boiler, paying for the heat pump and then paying for new radiators (the ones we use for gas ch won't get the full benefit out of the heat pump) and you're looking at what, £15-20,000?
No one is getting too worked up about it yet, but it is going to be very controversial imo.

One of the more interesting points in this video was that he did it properly. i.e. firstly working out the complete dimensions of the house, the thermal profile of the house and the heating capability of the house before getting an assessment as to what was needed.

In his case 5 radiators needed to be replaced. The bigger issue for him was that 10mm small bore plastic pipe is not really enough volume for a 40c heating system. The lower the flow, the higher the temp has to be in order to deliver the same heat. He had one floor with this pipe and it will have to be replaced.

The point with this is that he did the full analysis of the house correctly and is therefore not hostage to some heat pump "vendor" who just ramps the price because he can. For instance I have a pellet burning boiler sitting in my garage waiting to be fitted. One of the potential fitters tried to lay on me a whole "you'll need 280mm double skinned pipes to vent the boiler otherwise it won't draw and you will run a fire risk from the heat. Cut to the point where I know that it's fan driven and has an 80mm vent out the back of the boiler and that the vent gasses out of the boiler are relatively low heat due to the heat exchanger labyrinth that the gasses have to pass through in order to exit the boiler.

That "cowboy" would have charged me the entire cost of the boiler to fit completely the wrong thing to my boiler I have purchased.

What has to be remembered is that companies have grown fat on government grants which means they can massively overspec the work to be done.

For instance, with my home CH system, I'd need one water tank and one heat pump. I'm currently using a 30kw boiler and intend to put in a 37kw pellet burner to add hot water. A bit of judicious searching finds I can get a 15kw heat pump for $1,700, delivered free. I would need to replace one radiator as the rest are all massive overkill heat sources. Most of my radiators are cast iron.

I can clearly relate this. #1 son had a pellet burner installed to replace his old oil heating. It cost £16,000. Oh he got a grant and a government loan and money to buy pellets for the next 3 years. But reality is he had a 16kw pellet burner put in for £16k under a government scheme. I have a 37kw pellet burner I will install myself. It cost €3,500 and I'll pay about €500 on pipe to vent it.

You can't look at these government schemes and work out what the price might actually be. Because the whole market is massively skewed by government grants and companies which require "certification".

[Workingman]

Sweden had 1.9m heat pumps installed in 2019 of which 1.3m are air source.

The impression given (deliberately, to bolster your opinion) was that the 1.9 million were installed in the year 2019.

Had you said that, in total, Sweden had 1.9m heat pumps in operation by 2019 of which 1.3m are air source I would not have queried the figure. However, I would also like to point out that "aerothermal" does not only equate to air-to-water, as is also implied, it also includes air-to-air heating via ducting and blowers, which do not provide hot water. Air-to-air make up about 50% of all aerothermal units in Sweden.

From the Energy Savings Trust re the UK:
How will you heat your water?

Air-to-air heat pumps don’t heat hot water so you will need another way of heating water for showering, bathing and the hot taps. There are several options, and what’s best for you will depend on the amount of hot water your household needs, as well as any space or budget considerations.

You could consider a hot water cylinder fitted with an electric immersion heater, or you might consider using electric showers and ‘point of use’ water heaters. Point of use heaters could use either gas, LPG or electricity to heat the water. Gas-fired heaters will need a flue, whereas electrically heated units can simply be mounted underneath the sink out of sight.

Scandinavian housing stock, with its high thermal insulation and district heating, systems is eminently suitable for them. UK housing stock is not.

Things are not as simple as you and video man are making out.

[Suff]

Had you said that, in total, Sweden had 1.9m heat pumps in operation by 2019 of which 1.3m are air source I would not have queried the figure.

Mea culpa. I should have said in Total but did not sanity check.

As for Air, Air heat pumps not providing hot water? Not correct. both air water (ground spike) and Air Air provide hot water. Air Water is just more efficient, especially in cold climates.

[Workingman]

As for Air, Air heat pumps not providing hot water? Not correct. both air water (ground spike) and Air Air provide hot water.

Not according to the Energy Savings Trust and many other "air conditioning" providers such as Panasonic, GreenMatch, Daikin. The EST is where my "How will you heat your water" quote came from.

Now for a real world example.

My little enclosed estate has 64 four flat units - two up, two down. That is at least 128 of us who can never have a heat pump. When the gas goes off all our heating, cooking and hot water will have to go electric. It is possible that due to the nature of the leasehold of the site none of us will get a heat pump.

Just up the road is a housing association complex of units on three floors, same problem there - 228 flats affected.

Then there is this...



One small area of Leeds. Look at all those terraces, many of them back-to-back. No off street parking and barely a yard to park their bins. Tell them where to stick their heat pumps.

These things are replicated up and down the land.

[Suff]

I agree it is difficult WM, but until legislation forces the situation, solutions will continue to be expensive and few and far between.

[Workingman]

Suff, I am not against heat pumps. I even looked at installing one in my last house (1996) when the old Vulcan cast iron CH boiler was on its last legs. Huge garden with lawn, dig it up, put in the pipes, connect up, job done. Only the divorce put a stop to it. It would have been a bit Heath Robinson by today's standards, but I had the property and the engineering skills to make it work.

The problem today is that those who are now 'for' are a bit myopic: "If it works for me it works for everyone." There is no consideration or understanding of any opposite view.

Legislation will not change things for those above. Some people, millions, simply cannot have heat pumps, they will have to go all-electric, with the other problems that will cause, yet the politicians do not understand.