Vocal Voices

So says Donald Trump. His argument goes that the US cannot detain them indefinitely in Iraq and Syria and that once they are released they could pitch up anywhere. They would then be able to set up new Jihadi cells with the potential to carry out more terrorist atrocities, no matter how thoroughly they are monitored.

He wants them returned home and prosecuted using their homelands' legal frameworks.

Reluctantly, I agree with him. However, I believe that we should beef up our laws and not treat them with kid gloves. If that means building new facilities where they can be deradicalised away from the general prison population, and the public, then so be it. It must also be made clear to them, and to those 'treating' them, that their incarceration is open ended and they will not be released until such time as we, via an independent body, are 100% sure they are no longer a threat. This is how we should treat all terrorists.

They will never change ,always be a threat .
A bullet should be the answer

My heart agrees with Vic's second paragraph, but my head tells me WM's second paragraph is the right approach.

Just so long as that's what we do …....

I do have other thoughts for these returnee jihadists, along the lines of re-creating Cersei Lannister's Walk of Shame, for example, but they're possibly not for a genteel board like this one.

She has been stripped of her British citizenship on the grounds that, through her mother, she can be classified as a Bangladeshi under their law - so she is not stateless.

That should keep the various Appeal Courts well and truly occupied for a few years, I reckon …..

She should never be allowed back. I think Javid did the right thing.

victor wrote:They will never change ,always be a threat .
A bullet should be the answer

It would be considerably more merciful than they were to their captured enemies. I agree, they will always be a threat.

As for Shamima Begum, slightly off topic but imo there is something amiss in her top storey.
She left her family but seems completely unemotional about that.
Her friend is killed - she doesn't seem bothered.
She has lost two childeren - she doesn't seem all that bothered.
Her husband's in jail - she's not bothered.
She sees decapitated heads in dustbins - she's not bothered.

She also doesn't seem that bright, to put it mildly.
She has made her bed now she must lie on it, and that includes never coming back here.
I am puzzled though how men who actually fought for ISIS have already been let back in the country, whilst she isn't.

William Brooke Joyce (24 April 1906 – 3 January 1946), nicknamed Lord Haw-Haw, was an American-born, Anglo-Irish Fascist politician and Nazi propaganda broadcaster to the United Kingdom during World War II. He took German citizenship in 1940. He was convicted of one count of high treason in 1945 and sentenced to death. The Court of Appeal and the House of Lords upheld his conviction. He was hanged on 3 January 1946, making him the last person to be executed for treason in the United Kingdom. (Theodore Schurch was hanged the following day, but for the crime of treachery rather than treason.)

So, in terms of what she did, what is different? Apart from the scale and the fact that Britain was in an all out war for survival. The precedent has been set, should she come back she should be charged with treason. So, also, should all UK fighters who went to ISIS and fought against the British forces in theatre. Fortunately, for them, Treason no longer carries the death penalty.

cromwell wrote:As for Shamima Begum, slightly off topic but imo there is something amiss in her top storey.

She was apparently a bit of a high-flyer at school. Per Mrs O, who has some knowledge of these things, she's most likely on the spectrum. If she is to some degree an autistic savant, for example, one of the traits can be a distinct lack of empathy. I'm not saying that's definitely the case here, but it might explain some of her reactions.

None of which, however, should entitle her to any special treatment, and I'm still fully behind Javid in stripping her of citizenship.

Interestingly, the baby (given an Islamic jihadi warrior name, which says a lot) is not necessarily British either. He may well, under Dutch law, be a Dutch national (father's rights). Oh what a tangled web we weave …..

In passing, I hope that the Times, Sky News, BBC et al haven't paid her any money for her story. If they have, I'd favour an "aiding and abetting terrorism" complaint against the relevant journalist / editor.

Does it really matter what the charges are?

I am not against them being tried for treason, but I do want them kept out of ordinary prisons where they can 'infect' other idiots. As I said in my OP I want them imprisoned in special facilities where attempts can be made to deracialise them.

The prison term of X years should have no parole, and the deradicalisation process should be open ended until they can be deemed 'safe'. If that is never the case then they must stay locked away.

However, I do think this Begum case will come back to bite us. There will be expensive legal challenges from the bleeding hearts brigades, and her family will get legal aid for their part.

She might have been stripped of her UK citizenship, due to her mother's dual Bangladeshi / UK citizenship, but her husband is from the Netherlands. That could give her a get out card, it will certainly throw a spanner in the works.

Ossie, interesting remark about the spectrum, but there is another possibility - Stockholm Syndrome. This is where a captive attempts to ingratiate themselves with their captors as a self-preservation mechanism. She could be using a modification of it in the hope that it will protect her and her baby and at the same time persuade us to help in order to get them out of the camp.

I am not allowing it as an excuse, just noting that it could be a tactic she is using. She might not be as thick as she is pretending to be.

I agree, I think she not quite "right" but the last place I would want her is in our prison system - a hotbed of radicalisation according to a friend who works for the Ministry of Justice.