Vocal Voices

Please, hear me out.

This is not an attempt to cancel Brexit in any way, shape or form. It is an idea to overcome the mess created by the general election.

Following the result no party has a majority to form a government and rule, this leaves the internal politics of the UK in a precarious situation. There are schisms within the Tory party and May is under attack. It is inconceivable that she will last more than a few months. The deal with the DUP is not yet sealed and at the very best it wil be one of confidence and supply, and even then there are no guarantees that the government can survive a confidence vote, of which there could be many. It might even have difficulty in getting the Queen's speech passed without many amendments, and that on the same day Brexit negotiations are due to start. We look to be heading for blancmange government and a Tory leadership battle at exatly the wrong time. Brexit is too momentous for it to be negotiated at a time when we have the weakest of weak governments and with no idea who its future leader might be.

We, the UK, the political parties and the people, need a bit of time and breathing space to regroup and sort things out.

Gerron wiv yer!

No, I think it's exactly the right time to go ahead and, under the auspices of cross-party consensus, secure a soft Brexit via something akin to a Norway style agreement.

OK, we hard-boiled Brexiteers will have to be pragmatic over the final deal, but then so will everyone else, and there are some more conciliatory words coming out of the EU over the last 24 hours which may be helpful in securing a deal everyone can live with.

I agree with WM but for probably different reasons. Theresa May has to be locked in the cupboard for the next two years so that she can't totally banjax the Brexit negotiations. She has proved she isn't up to it and I worry that with her hand on the tiller, the SS Great Britain is going to go full steam ahead into the pier head. I have no idea what the worst deal might be but I'm pretty sure she is capable of delivering it.

Onwards and upwards. We have to go on and negotiate the best deal for all of the UK, How much of this calamity is down to Theresa May not getting the mandate she wanted and how much is down to a combination of Jeremy Corbyn offering a tempting list of goodies, albeit uncosted and Theresa May alienating her core voters, it is difficult to be certain, but I suspect the latter played the major part in the disastrous result for the Tories

To me this is simple.

The people voted for this mess. They knew that A50 was, without great sacrifice, a one way trip. They knew it was triggered. They had a vote to make our exit a strong one.

The people voted for a mess. They were well aware that if they voted that way they would get a mess, they were told, very clearly, that if they did that it would be a mess. They voted for a mess.

Live it!

A50 is not stopping. We are leaving. We have less than 2 years to make a go of it. Even if we went back and begged Spain would veto it, now they have the bit between their teeth they think they can do something about Gib. Also they want the UK out of the EU because they see Indyref as a threat in terms of their own independence movements. Indyref may be on the back burner for now, but it is certainly not gone.

We're all in the bus and the voters just threw the steering wheel out of the window.

My sympathy would not fill a thimble for that move. So the people thought they could vote on purely UK issues, on "social" issues, on Nationalisation and who was going to give the biggest give away. The elephant is still in the room and now it can be seen.

Fortunately for my point of view, A50 is going ahead because of the number of Labour MP's who would lose their seat in retaliation if they tried to block it. Revenge of the remainers? Revenge of the Leavers is an ever present threat and it has not gone away.

However I'm sure that I'm going to hear this particular refrain over and over again in the next few months.

At the risk of repeating, ad nauseam, the Tory Manifesto can only be achieved by Hard Brexit.

I doubt very much that the DUP will block May forming a minority government. She has the right to do so and can only be voted down in the house. As the DUP will be forced to suffer Labour in coalition with LD and SNP as a consequence, I can't see that.

My take is that May will form her government and that government, whether led by May or not, will deliver Brexit to the party Manifesto.

What it will do, if the other parties try to stonewall, is that it will consume all other business in the government, essentially stalling all legislation for the next two years.

In short, again. A mess.

It is NOT actually about Brexit, although it is a part!!!

There, is that clearer?

The governance of the country is an absolute shambles - a complete mess. There are urgent issues within the country that need addressing and they require the undivided attention of our politicians. History tells us, Wilson '74-7 and Major '96-7, that we do not *do* minority governments, we are not set up for them. History also tells us that fighting on two fronts is a bad idea. We need to focus on one so that we do not get the worst of both.

In the present situation we need to get our own house in order before we go on to other things, and we can only do that if we concentrate on that alone, even if it means sidelining Brexit for a short while. The fact is that we cannot have any meaningful Brexit negotiations with a lame duck parliament and a *dead woman walking* PM.

Well if it is not about Brexit why did you put in a title which is entirely about Brexit???

If the people can't read, don't listen and do whatever the hell they want, or go off in some kind of dream of belief about something other than reality, then that's their right. However it does not change reality.

Whatever the state of the Government or the state of the political parties or the ability to negotiate a clean exit, A50 is going ahead. There is no way to "halt" A50 without retracting from it.

So, to answer the subject question. NO it is not time to halt A50. It is time to take responsibility for our actions and live with the consequences.

Something both voters and the losing political parties are notably unwilling to do.

Or we could just give Gib to Spain and pass a law banning Scotland from holding a referendum for 50 years and making it an illegal and jailable offense to do so. I'm sure Spain would spearhead our charge to withdraw from A50 if we did that.

It is also NOT about party politics or the primary school playground blame games.

It is about where we are and how we handle it.

We learned this morning that the cabinet meeting was cacelled in favour of a *political cabinet* meeting later today. What is a political cabinet? It is a meeting of the inner circle - the hard core few.

We now learn that the Queen's speech has been delayed *for a few days*.

These things are indications of the perilous state we are in.

Even with the DUP 100% on-board, the majority is only two. There will be just too many opportunities for the government to fall, and fall at any time.

Suff wrote:Well if it is not about Brexit why did you put in a title which is entirely about Brexit???

I put it in the title because it related to the question I was asking.

Basically that was: Can we (temporarily) halt Brexit in order for us to gain time to sort out our government?

The answer is yes we can.... as you describe. We can then, at another time of our choosing, trigger A50 again.

And what, prey tell, has the straw man of Gib got to do with the UK taking time out to set its own house in order?

I feel we should all pull together to achieve the best result for everyone that can be got.

Now is not the time for pessimism or dithering or sitting on the fence the future of the whole country and everyone in it depends of good negotiations with the EU.

My opinion is that for the next two years the best solution would be a coalition working group of all the parties with the sole responsibility of getting good fair terms for all including EU citizens here and UK citizens in the EU I stress FAIR TERMS.

On the whole the country runs itself to a large degree civil servants see to that as happens between elections.

After the Brexit is decided and agreed then go for new elections where everyone will or should have a level playing field, in the meanwhile it would appear we will have to get along with what we have and hope that everything turns out ok.

Manxie xx

Workingman wrote:Basically that was: Can we (temporarily) halt Brexit in order for us to gain time to sort out our government?

No we can't. We can ask the other 27 if they would kindly allow us to withdraw our A50 submission and become, again, a full active member of the EU. That is not a temporary situation, we are asking for them to accept us again fully.

Workingman wrote:The answer is yes we can.... as you describe. We can then, at another time of our choosing, trigger A50 again.

Again in my "No we can't" answer, you would be asking the EU to all vote (all 27 of them), to say "yes we can let you back in", only to then trigger A50 again with all the economic consequences to the EU at a time of our choosing when, to coin a phrase, we have our crap together.

The chances of the other 27 being that nice to us? Nil. Actually, less than nil. There's not a cat in hell's chance they will say yes.

Workingman wrote:And what, prey tell, has the straw man of Gib got to do with the UK taking time out to set its own house in order?

Are we forgetting that Spain has already tried to make a land grab for Gib in the exit negotiations? They will veto any attempt of the UK to withdraw from A50 without some deal on Gib. Remembering that to withdraw from A50 requires a Unanimous vote from all 27.

That is how Gib gets in there.

I was talking reality. Not the straw man of withdrawing from A50. Not only is it not likely, I'd say, right now, it's virtually impossible. Given that the two main parties have manifesto's of exiting from the EU. The other 27 are not going to give a crap about our issues internally. In fact they are going to see that as a real bonus in the negotiations to come. Why should they damage themselves further just to help us?

Not one chance in hell.