Waste of time.

[Suff]

I would carry on but I cannot be bothered.

So you don't like drawing parallels, you won't accept that tying the UK to a bunch of countries with state backed utilities which use that support to buy our "newly privatised" energy companies is a cost of membership.

You tell me that the EU generation have lived in peace and prosperity yet when I point out that it had naff all to do with the EU and was massively to do with a treaty of nations and their policy of attack one, attack all, you call it a fail.

Did the Ukraine want to be a member of the EU? Not really. Would they have wanted to be a member of NATO when Russia came calling? You betcha.

NATO, not the EU, created the environment for growth and stability. The EU just used it to meet their own ends and we benefitted too. However you assume that if we were not in the EU, we would not, also, have benefitted from that stability, of which we were the second largest guarantor, with the second largest cost of membership.

Fail and Fail and Fail again. You cannot say that the EU "gave" us something which was actually given by a totally different mechanism and massively guaranteed by the UK ourselves. At a huge cost. When the Eastern EU countries saw our Brexit vote they started to panic and ask about their security from a resurgent Russia. They had to be reminded that it is NATO and not the EU which guarantees their security.

There are critical analysis of the cost of membership for the UK in the EU which show that the price has been high and the benefits are tenuous at best. There are, of course, opposite analysis. But those groups said the UK economy would collapse just by voting for Brexit. Credibility is a bit hard to maintain then. But they are put forward, again and again, as credible.

Anyway, we either will, or will not, leave the EU. If we don't then you can kiss the UK goodbye as a nation in 50 - 100 years. If we do, the pain will be real, the rewards are up to us.

[AliasAggers]

I would carry on but I cannot be bothered.

.

That's more like it, Frank. !!!

[Workingman]

Cheers Aggers.

Suff, we can ping-pong our opinions till the end of time, but as we are coming from different starting points we are unlikely to ever agree.

However, we must be able to agree that where we are is a complete mess. We are no further forward than we were 22 months ago and that is largely due to May painting herself into a corner carrying a huge spade where she then started to dig and is still digging.

I will be over the Moon if a deal can be reached that is supported by the majority of Remainers and Leavers alike, but I am not hopeful. My fear is that only two options are now alive and kicking - no-deal or no Brexit. Either one could lead to civil unrest not seen for many a decade, things are that serious.

[Kaz]

However, we must be able to agree that where we are is a complete mess. We are no further forward than we were 22 months ago and that is largely due to May painting herself into a corner carrying a huge spade where she then started to dig and is still digging.

I will be over the Moon if a deal can be reached that is supported by the majority of Remainers and Leavers alike, but I am not hopeful. My fear is that only two options are now alive and kicking - no-deal or no Brexit. Either one could lead to civil unrest not seen for many a decade, things are that serious.

This!!

[cromwell]

May made a huge blunder when she outsourced negotiations to the civil service. The Sir Humphreys are remainers to a man who have said that they want a "kit kat" Brexit. Just the same under the surface.
Her deal itself is not leaving the EU, but keeping us tied to it closely, unable to make our own trade deals.
We should have been preparing - seriously preparing - for a no deal two years since.
Because a bad deal was not only a possible outcome, it was overwhelmingly the most likely outcome. Why would the EU give us a good deal when we are leaving them?
So for all these MPs who are running around squawking that we need more time - we've had the time, we just haven't used it. MP's voted to start Article 50, they voted for the withdrawal bill. Article 50 says very clearly - two years and we leave.

The only thing that gives me doubt abut leaving the EU is when I look at our own politicians, because they are dire.

[Workingman]

Cromwell, I think you are right. At the start there should have been two processes running parallel to each other - prep for a no-deal and negotiations for a deal.

I think there was a time when a deal could have been brokered that pragmatic Remainers and Leavers, they do exist, could have accepted. That bird has flown and so all we are left with is the guano - lots of it.

[Suff]

WM, I can see that it is a complete mess, I agree totally.

Where we differ is in who we blame and in what proportion.

Firstly I blame our politicians. Most of them want to remain. They have done every single thing they can to undermine the negotiating stance of the British government and have tried, on every occasion, to undermine the government.

Secondly I blame May. As Crommers says, she handed the negotiations to people who don't want to leave. In fact the job of the Civil Service is way, WAY, easier in the EU as many of the most difficult decisions are devolved to another body. Then she signed a deal that had never been put to parliament and refused to back down even when it was crystal clear that she had broken her own rules and was going for a bad deal in the end.

Thirdly I blame the EU. For being difficult? No, if a dog waters down a lamppost it is not vandalism, it is just being a dog. No I blame the EU for not caring enough about how the UK works, what the aspirations of the people are and what is totally untenable or not. If the EU actually understood the UK, they would realise that some things are simply not possible to get through parliament. We are not PR, we don't have a President with strong powers, we are a parliamentary democracy with a first past the post system, two chambers and a, mainly, titular Monarch. That combination simply doesn't exist in the rest of the EU.

The fact that most Brits don't understand that PR means that the top of any political party is always safe, no matter how much they annoy the people and how many "bad deals" they do, sets an expectation of what the EU will do that is unsupportable. The EU firmly believes that the UK parliament is being difficult. They simply can't understand "running scared" of the electorate because the electorate have no real power to destroy the larger parties under PR. Witness Scotland. Virtually every MP for Westminster went SNP in the GE but, in the Scottish Parliament, where PR rules, SNP didn't get a majority. It is this kind of total lack of understanding which makes the total lack of communication between the UK and the EU.

Do I blame the people? For expectations only. You say that you would be happy with a deal that both Leavers and remainers can agree on and get behind. That is like saying I'll be happy if I can step off into fresh air and stay there for the next few hours then step down when I want to. Impossible. Why? Because Remainers want to Remain and will not be happy unless we remain, deal or no deal, they won't be "happy" unless we are tied to the rotting corpse of the EU forevermore. Leavers want to Leave and will not be happy unless we actually Leave the EU, get rid of their influence in our courts and decide who comes across our borders, works in our country and is forced to leave our country; all without interference. That doesn't mean we'll close our borders, it just means we have the right to decide. Most Leavers understand that.

Why do people think it is a mess? Expectations again. I never expected anything else. Come on, be honest, the Parliament doesn't want to leave, the EU won't agree to anything unless it is deemed "in their best interests" and the Tories never had enough majority to get over their EUphile core which would sink any attempt to truly leave the EU. So it is a mess. It was ALWAYS going to be a mess. Did none of the deals the EU has done actually sink in? CETA on the brink of destruction at the 11th hour as the Walloons sought to take advantage by blocking ratification?

There is a simple fact which Remainers seem to wilfully ignore. The EU thinks they are negotiating "in their best interests". Sorry that is bollocks. It was in their best interests that the UK did not vote to leave. They failed, utterly, by simply not even trying, to avoid that vote. Now they think that putting impossible conditions onto a "deal" with the UK, as we leave, is in their best interests. Bollocks again. Their best interests lie in making it as easy as possible for the UK to trade with them, exchange people with them and work with them. Notably the EU is doing the absolute opposite they are putting up conditions which, virtually, make it impossible for the UK to give them what they want. Ensuring that everyone leaves with a sour taste and they fail, again, utterly.

So, yes, it is a mess. All the dogs are watering down lampposts and, honestly, it's not vandalism.

We just need to get out and get it done with. What comes after is up to all the politicians and negotiators to arrange.

Anything else is unthinkable because the consequences of trying to override the will of the people, in this way, on the UK political landscape, are incalculable. Why? Think it through. France is talking about putting up Gliets Jaunes candidates at the next French elections. Forget UKIP, a new party will come out of the ashes of that kind of betrayal and people will vote for it. That party will provide a safe harbour for the worst kind of racists and bigots because the people will be so infuriated with the establishment that they will vote for it anyway.

Yes it is a mess. There is only one way out of this mess and it, clearly, is not apparent to the politicians. Remainers, and fairweather Leavers, need to respect the vote of the people and get behind it. If that means we crash out with no deal they need to respect that this is the only way we will get out and get behind the country and push us into a better place.

It is Remainers and fairweather leavers who have created this mess, remainers and fairweather leavers who will continue to perpetuate this mess and remainers and fairweather leavers who are doing this country a disservice. The people were asked and they said leave. If those who said Leave did not understand what that meant then they should have stayed home and not voted. Those who lost the vote needed to understand that when they lost, they damned well lost and trying to subvert that vote was going to damage the country far more than ANY amount of leaving the EU.

That is the mess we are in and that is who I see are responsible for it.

The trick here is understanding the UK, the EU and our politicians. Anyone who understood that would always have known, from day 1, that it was going to be a clusterfuck at Brexit Day -1 with a bunch of headless chickens on all sides running around behind large barriers, faced with guns, shouting "what are we going to do".

Understanding that lends a certain amount of perspective. Leaving with No Deal is infinitely "better". But people need to understand where we are going and how it will evolve in the next month before they accept that.

So when you tell me it's a mess and point at May, think about what I have said and reflect. Those are the players, this is the game they are playing, what is the most likely eventual result?

[victor]

Mandatory acceptance of the Euro, NO say or VETO over future laws from Brussels?

Eu Army? what language will be spoken? Not the same weapons in All forces. Who will command Germany? France? Committee?

[medsec222]

The disadvantages of being a member of the EU far outweigh the advantages, Victor. I hope we don't fall at the final fence.

[Workingman]

Suff, I appreciate what you say and I am in agreement with some of it, but there are other parts where we will always differ.

The thing for me now is that we are impotent in our ability to change anything. A second referendum, which I am against and have said so on many occasions, will solve nothing. If anything it might widen the divisions that already exist in our society.

I also believe that some deals once talked about, Swiss model, Canada + x times and Norway, are now off the table. Why? It is simply because both sides are now firmly entrenched and so solidly dug in that they have tunnel vision and go with "We are right and you are wrong. End of.' The middle ground has disappeared. That, as I said earlier, only leaves no-deal or no Brexit. The blame, as I see it. lies with all sides as in irresistible forces meet immovable objects.

This morning I have been talking with a Frenchman from Tours. He is the son-in-law of the lady I help with her aphasia. He also blames both sides with equal measure and thinks that both the EU and the UK knew that no-deal was always an option, but neither of them put in the time and effort to mitigate its impact. His take is that Brexit will hurt both sides simply because there is no time left and that Brexit will happen on March 29th without any deal in place.

Vic, if we revoke A50 we stay in with our opt-out, veto, rebate, no Schengen and no €. We would not be rejoining on new terms as we have not left.

Meds, I see things differently, obviously, and am convinced that leaving on no-deal terms is the worst of all options, but it looks more likely as time passes.