Who do you believe?

[cromwell]

Latest news in that Jean-Claude Junker, who is one of the EU presidents or whatever, allowed 340 multinational firms to register their European HQ's in Luxemburg, when he was Prime Minister of that throbbing superpower. This allows them to take advantage of Luxemburg's super low corporation tax and effectively dodge billions in tax in the rest of Europe, where they make most of their money. There is some talk of Junker breaking EU rules by doing so, but who knows.

The EU began by being a device to stop Germany piling through France every 30 years or so and expanded to become a vision of one Europe devoid of nationalism and happily united. Basically our population was never told all this and believed at least initially that it was all about a "Common Market".

Lying to the population of Europe must have seemed the easiest way to their goal but you can only lie so much for so long before those lies are revealed (thinking especially of the UK here). Until at last the question is asked "Why does something that purports to be so good need so many lies telling on it's behalf?". To which there is no real answer.

[Suff]

Latest news in that Jean-Claude Junker, who is one of the EU presidents or whatever, allowed 340 multinational firms to register their European HQ's in Luxemburg, when he was Prime Minister of that throbbing superpower.

The problem with the UK is that we don't get it. This is exactly the game. Everyone is playing it. Well except for the UK..... We do not understand, we do not learn and we do not belong.

Why stay?

Remember that leaving will hurt me more than it will hurt you.....

[Workingman]

We have sat back for forty years and seen how the game is played, we know it, and they know it, but we want it our way, and only our way.

Is it any wonder that they think that we are a PITA?

We had a great chance to change things when we, Denmark and Ireland, joined, and we blew it. We had allies. We had more coming in the next phase and we ignored them as well.

We are the masters of our own failure in the EU. It could have been ours to control and we blew it because we never got stuck in.

It is sad, but I now think that we do have to leave just to prove the point to the Eurosceptics that we were better off in.

It will cost us dearly, but at least we will be free of the damned EU.

Huzzah!

[pederito1]

We have been at war with at least four countries of Europe at various times for centuries. Why do the fools ever think we could join them, they will just try to screw us in every possible way.

[TheOstrich]

In the ongoing pro-EU propaganda war, have any of you received your "Annual Tax Summary 2013-14" from the Inland Revenue yet, like I have?

On the back, this shows you how the Government spent your money, a new feature. Bit like your local council does when they send you your rates bill.

Prominent, top of the pie chart, is a very thin sliver representing your miniscule part of the "UK contribution to the EU budget". It purports to represent just 0.8% of spending.
Overseas aid is next, (and that's also contentious in many right-wing circles). It shows as 1.2%.
In contrast, welfare is 24.5% and health 18.9%.

Anyway, do we really believe that the Government contribution to the EU budget is such a low percentage? Personally I don't .....

[cromwell]

We are the masters of our own failure in the EU.

I think there is some truth in this. But in effect UK politicians painted themselves into a corner. Heath lied about surrender of sovereignty. Wilson lied about sorting that out. Lies about the Maastricht treaty, the EU Constitution, the Lisbon Treaty, the Euro - the list is endless. Note - lies told by UK politicians to the people of the UK.

Why did they ever have to start out lying and go on lying? Why not set out what the EU was about plainly and simply and let people make an informed decision, rather than feed them misinformation and outright lies for so many years?

I get the worry absolutely about freedom of movement - but it's one of the founding principles of the EU for God's sake!!!!

You can't suddenly, forty odd years after you join, suddenly react in shock and horror as though it's some bolt from the blue!

As I've said, UK politicians (and EU supporters in the media) have painted themselves into a corner. They can't tell the truth now without exposing how many lies have been told over the years, so we go on with this shabby, deceitful public "debate".

I still think that any referendum will result in a narrow win for the staying in camp. But as with Scotland, a very unhappy and unconvincing win with a bitter aftermath which does nothing to settle the issue.

[Workingman]

I get the worry absolutely about freedom of movement - but it's one of the founding principles of the EU for God's sake!!!!

Yes, but one that is being abused.....

The original idea was to allow workers (keyword) to travel from one country to find work in another without the need for visas, work permits and the like. They were to be employed under the same rules as the indigenous people, the same terms and conditions at their place of work and at the same level of pay. There were also provisions for funds to be transferred from their home countries to cover social needs should they become ill or unemployed. They were also allowed to take some benefits accrued by them in their own countries, an example might be time spent on a housing waiting list. That time could allow for an application for housing to be 'backdated' using their time spent at home. Note how different that is from jumping the queue, as apparently happens today.

Another thing that needs to be remembered is that the original idea was spread over only six countries and there were not huge disparities between them. Even when the UK, Ireland and Denmark joined it was still a reasonable and workable idea.

It is the recent expansion and the built-in loopholes allowing for misuse that have caused the problems. EU law makers can be blamed for that, for not closing the loopholes the minute they were found. Countries such as the UK, who allowed the flouting of the loopholes, can also be blamed. Freedom of movement (for workers) was never intended to be a free-for-all.

[Suff]

What really bugs me is the sanctimonious way that Germany prattles on about right of free movement and work migration is a basic and absolute right throughout the EU.

Excuse me but I have a Czech friend who thinks they are a bunch of B'stards for forcing the "new 10" to wait up to 7 years, before they could gain full and unrestricted access to full EU labour markets.

In fact is was ONLY the UK, Ireland and the Scandinavian counties who did not sign on to that one. Now the UK is firmly established as the easiest market to access, the best paying market and the most open labour market. There are 507 million people in the EU as at Jan 2014. They can't all fit in the UK....

So Frau Merkel. How good is your English? Can you translate "Shove it you sanctimonious Heifer"??? It is intended to be that blunt.....