Revenge

[Kaz]

Just one example, so many of our environmental laws are tied in with EU law - do we trust the tories (or any govt. really) to immediately replace these, with new ones? Remember how filthy our beaches, for example, were at one point? We've been in the EU (or Common Market as it then was) for over 40 years, the untangling will be torturous and full of loopholes.

[Suff]

Suff where you see a positive jump to new opportunities, I see a leap in the dark, and so do many others, particularly those involved in law and finance.

Ah, the law.... Caveat Emptor. Totally legal in the UK and used a lot. However the second a UK legal contract hits one EU country or company, EU laws apply and Caveat Emptor is illegal. UK companies have been stuffed over and over again by that. Now the EU countries know how some of the UK works, they use this against us to break contracts and renege on commitments.

The EU working for us every day.. Because we don't commit and we don't engage. So we are always on the periphery being damaged by the EU instead of being in the middle and benefitting. But to be in the middle and to benefit we would have to totally change our legal system, our code of conduct for trade and many other things the UK leads the world in....

As for finance, remember I've worked in finance in Switzerland, Germany, Holland and Belgium (especially Brussels). There was a point, before the crash, where Glasgow was a larger financial centre than Frankfurt and Frankfurt is the seat of the European Central Bank.

All I see is a lot of hungry jealous eyes looking over the fence at the greener grass. Never understanding that it is their laws, practises and horrendous restrictions on financial transactions which have driven that trade to the UK. Never understanding that they would graze that green grass till it's all gone and then trample the earth into the hard packed ground they stand on where you need a drilling rig to plant a seed (analogy)....

Do you recall when HSBC were mulling moving their HQ to Shanghai (which I note is not in the EU)? They didn't and left it in the UK. Why? Because the UK is the place with the least regulation, the best return and is the largest market for that. Never mind the fact that London remains one of the top cities in the world for business people to want to come to.

We leave the EU and it's all going to move to Frankfurt and all those German laws and regulations? Or Paris where they'll insist they speak French to some degree? Yeah, right.

There are exceptionally good reasons why London is the centre of finance it is.

The links with the US
The proximity to the rest of the EU states in physical travel terms
The time zone between Asia and America
The language
The relaxed regulations and corporate controls

None of which are going to change with the UK leaving the EU. I've bee soooooo mad at all the total bullcrap which has been coming out of the remain camp but I've been restraining myself.

As I said to WM. There are extremely good and valid reasons to stay in the EU but NONE of them are really being put forward by the Remain camp.

[Suff]

Just one example, so many of our environmental laws are tied in with EU law - do we trust the tories (or any govt. really) to immediately replace these, with new ones? Remember how filthy our beaches, for example, were at one point? We've been in the EU (or Common Market as it then was) for over 40 years, the untangling will be torturous and full of loopholes.

I note that Scotland exceeded the UK commitment to the 2020 emissions regulations 6 years early. I also note that the UK was instrumental in driving those regulations within the EU And Cameron was a really big player in that. Something the press chose to belittle him for but never gave him any kudos for. Now it's trendy but because they "forgot" him at the time, they won't go back and thank him now.

Beaches? Like the raw sewage that was pouring out into the Med well into the 80's? Britain didn't have that because we'd already done the whole sewage treatment thing back in Victorian times. My second house in France was connected to the mains sewage in 2012, after we bought it. Before that it was discharging into the local river, right down by the old bridge.

EU environmental regulations? Britain has been there before them in most ways. Beaches? Yep our councils didn't care and the government didn't see our beaches as real moneyspinners. EU legislation on clean beaches? When they realised that trade in tourism was going to Russia and the former East Block states, because they were so pristine, basically because only the elite had the time or money to use them, the EU realised they would have to clean up their act and then went on a legislation rampage which still has not been implemented fully in the core EU states, except Germany who are extremely environmentally conscious, but has been fully implanted by the UK even if it was not really valid for our infrastructure.

If we want to try and make decisions on whether the UK is a fit for the EU and whether we want to be in the EU, then we need to know what the EU is and that means living and working over there, side by side, with the people of the EU. Not listening to a bunch of politicians arguing over how much less comfortable their lives would be if they actually had to do their job.

Yes it's going to be a challenge to disentangle the EU. But this is my take and it has never changed. The cost of doing that, even if it takes us another 40 years, is far, far, less than the cost of not doing it.

Ask any American, Aussie or even Kiwi if they will give up their nationality and freedom to decide their own future; just to have a comfortable trade relationship and to be totally lazy about their own future, depending on others to ensure it's good for them. They'll think you are crazy.

Ask any American south of the Mason Dixie line if they want to be outside the US and they will think you are crazy.

Of course Americans south of the Mason Dixie line don't have a thousand years of history, didn't have the largest empire the world has ever seen and lost a war of independence.

If we're too scared to stand on our own two feet then we need to get in Schengen, get in the Euro, shut up about immigration and start pissing outside the tent.

Why? Why not talk about "exceptions"? Simply because the Labour party has given away every exception negotiated except for the rebate. They can't justify the rebate, that's money. The rest is all about life and jobs...

When will the people of the UK get it?

The EU

IS a country
IS Schengen
IS the Euro

That's what we are voting about here. Do we want to be a member state of the European Union (a country), with the Euro as our currency and the borderless state as it exists in the US.

The answer is:

Remain
Leave

And there are very good arguments for each. But the three statements I have made above are what Remain stands for!

How else do I put it?

[Workingman]

One thing I do not understand is who will govern the UK and implement Brexit's current roadmap should VoteLeave win the referendum.

The political parties ever likely to win a General Election are all officially in the Remain camp; only the DUP in NI is for Leave. The majority of MPs, from all parties, are for Remain. Whichever party, or coalition, gets to govern the UK is likely to be, at best, lukewarm to Brexit's demands. Even if MPs put political ideology aside and vote on their referendum stances the Brexiters will still be in a tiny minority. How are their demands/proposals going to be met?

At the next GE will parties put up Remain and Leave candidates for election in all constituencies - I think not? If they do what sort of mess would that create? Will leave MPs defect from their parties and do a "Gang of four, SDP" and form a new party with UKIP? Goodness NO! MPs putting their cushy jobs and influence ahead of what they and their constituents believe in, deary me.

Utopia, Shangri La and Bali Hai will not call come a Brexit win.

[Suff]

It is a piece that nobody has thought through fully.

However. Having said that. The timetable for an EU exit it 2 years. In those 2 years we have to make our trade agreements and everything else.

One key point is true though. There are enough Tory rebels to bring the government down within those 2 years if the government won't play ball. Quite simply Labour could call a vote of no confidence and Cameron would be faced with an ultimatum. Do as we say or lose.

To be honest I believe the voters would forgive the Tories who did this if Cameron were to try and play games. Tory party forgiveness is an entirely different thing.

The very best the Tories could hope for is a stand down, a move sideways for Osborne and an orderly transition to an EU exit leadership in the party. The worst is a totally 4 way debacle where all the exit leaders of each party jump on the bandwagon of a popular referendum vote and make as much hay as possible at everyone's expense.

But, we are getting ahead of ourselves. The fear factor still has to play. The leave campaign has to win. The remain campaign has to keep all it's lies and sordid little secrets, well, secret, for a few more days.

It's all still to play for as they say.

[Workingman]

The questions have not been answered.

I am not talking about the negotiations with the EU, or the tit-for-tat, we are having that ad nauseam. I am asking how my country will be governed following Brexit.

The parliamentary parties and the majority of their MPs will still be Remainers, and though defeated, they will still govern. Are they suddenly to become converted on the road to Damascus? They, and their unelected and unmovable Lords and Ladyships, will still rule. That will remain the case for many, many years to come. It will be damned difficult to get some Brexit proposals passed.

Take the European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill, for example. It is a damned good bargaining chip to get votes, but as a government policy it is about as toxic as things get. It sends out the message that the UK really does not want anything to do with Europe. If it gets passed it would kill, at least for many generations, any chance of the UK rejoining even a reformed Europe.

[Suff]

Agree, the debate should have included our government post brexit.

But as we've both said. The toxicity of the entire competition has killed any rational debate and this critical pre-requisite for good government after an exit has been completely missed.

Of course if we stay it doesn't really matter s our government will continue to erode to the EU to the point where it is a rubber stamp. Even the foreign office will only report to Brussels on trade.....

[Workingman]

The problem I have is that if the result is by a narrow margin it is a poisoned chalice for future government to deal with. Neither side will have a mandate to go their own way.

If, say, Remain win Leave will, quite rightly, want some of their proposals to be implemented in some way, and vice-versa. The only way this can work is by a stonking victory for one side, and that looks unlikely.

I can see another referendum coming on. God help us!

[Aggers]

Beware the people who are trying to scare you into doing what they want.
They ALWAYS have something to hide and the bigger the scare, the bigger the thing they want to hide.

Now, I'll go along with that statement. Words of wisdom, indeed.

What this country really wants, when we leave the E.U., is a Government committed to doing what the people want,
and not doing anything serious without first having a plebiscite to determine what the majority of voters agree to.
Unless they do that, this thing we call Democracy will not work, and the consequences could be catastrophic.

[Workingman]

What this country really wants, when we leave the E.U., is a Government committed to doing what the people want.

OK. let's suppose we vote to leave on June 23rd, then what people?

We get two years, minimum, to negotiate our excit. Who will do the negotiations? The government, Tory, majority of MPs for remain? The Civil Service, also for remain?. Labour, SNP, Plaid, LibDems, Greens, any coalition, CBI, Banks, big business - they all want us to remain.

If we do vote to leave all the negotiators are ex-remainers. They will do their damndest to make sure that the split is as painless as possible, just in case we need to go back. Brexiters will not get what they want, especially with a close result.

If Leave does not win with a fantastic majority, that's it. Game over.