Cameron's speech.

[Workingman]

We now know for definite what the situation is.

IF the Tories win the next general election with a working majority Cameron will try to renogotiate the UK's position within the EU and attempt to repatriate some powers from Brussels. Once that work is completed he will put the result up for acceptance via a referendum. So, basically, we will get an in/out referendum by 2017, at the latest, and If the answer is that we do not accept the new position then we are out. It will not be a return ticket.

It is quite a clever speech, in some ways. He has given his Eurosceptic MPs a peg to hang their hat on. He has taken the wind out of UKIP's sails. He will have quelled the strident calls for such a referendum this parliament and he has sent a clear message to Europe - negotiate or we leave.

However, he has also painted himself into a corner as far as the EU goes. Its members might just think that they are being held to ransom - the outcome of any negotiation has to be in the UK's favour - and tell the UK to stuff it.

It all depends on whether the Tories win the elction, though, and I am tempted to say that if I was Nick Clegg I would walk away from the coalition now, today, and force his hand.

[cromwell]

If, if, if.
If Cameron wins the next election.
If he keeps his promise.
The EU is and has always been on a steady march to a United States of Europe with full monetary and political union.
It was always intended for the EU to be an undemocratic organisation, led by an unchallengable elite.
Such an organisation does not "give back power".

So where does that leave us?

[Suff]

It was a clever speech, but the most telling thing in that whole speech was this.

The EU must be able to act with the speed and flexibility of a network, not the cumbersome rigidity of a bloc.

Don't expect any political pundit to come to the fore and expand this statement to what it really is. That the EU is a communist state and the UK does NOT want to be in a communist state......

Very brave of him. It will have alienated him from the entire commission and council. Expect the EU to intervene in the next UK election. HEAVILY.

As for Clegg leaving? Good. Do it now. Force the issue. Cameron could win an election in the next 6 months. The economy is up, we're out of recession for now, more austerity has been avoided. Yes the budget is not as balanced as he would have liked, but, then again, we didn't want that did we? As it would have meant more fuel duty and more jobs lost....

Glegg's gonads are too small......

[Workingman]

So where does that leave us?

Where we have always been - on the outside looking in: a wallflower.

We had our chances to steer the EEC/EU on a different path and we blew them all.

Clegg's gonads are too small......

Pips. A man with no principles either. He will hold on to power at any cost. I am surprised that he has not faced a revolt from LibDem MPs, but they also probably like the (illusion) of power.

[Workingman]

EU assessment is not positive - diplomatic, but largely negative.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21159365

[Suff]

What else?

Shut up. Do as you are told and...... lest I forget.

KEEP ON PAYING

[Workingman]

There is nothing to stop the UK making bilateral trade agreements, even though we are in the EU, so long as any products imported to the UK meet EU specs and are not then exported from the UK to the EU.

We pay about £50 million a day to allow our exports to the EU to be tariff free. We export more to the EU than any other single market and if we left we would have to pay tariffs. These tariffs could, probably would, total more than £50 million.

Our exports to the EU, if we left, would have to comply with EU regulations. However, outside of the EU we would have no say in those EU regulations and import rules.

Keep on paying? We will whatever we do.....

[Suff]

Come on let's be honest here.

Unless we use a veto, threaten to use a veto or threaten to refuse to pay, we have NO say on what goes on in the EU, never have done and never will do.

The EU is dominated by two different cultures. The "old" EU which was occupied by Germany during WWII, had it's infrastructure changed and "harmonised" to German standards

And

The new EU which was "occupied" by Russia in the guise of the USSR. Had it's infrastructure changed and modified to fit the Russian model.

Then we have the UK and Ireland.

The EU is dominated by countries who will brook no change in the way they provide their pitifully outdated and insecure infrastructures. All the changes and gains the UK made since WWII are being worked around. Anything and I do mean ANYTHING is OK so long as it does not mean using a UK standard.

They sit around all day dreaming crap up, to which the only recommendation possible is that it doesn't mean following the Anglo Saxon lead and then we're supposed to meekly sit down and accept it!!!!! That is not a relationship. That is not a Union, that's complete and utter bollocks and it's time the British people understood how it works. Oh yes the new Eastern block countries are OK with it, but come on, their Soviet era infrastructure is so much worse than the rest of the EU that anything is better than what they have.

Just take the new regulations on cabling. 50 years of improvements, moisture barriers, rat proofing, mutli sleeve protection Decades of improvements. So now we need only ONE thing, we need plastic armouring around the cable. Yes we need non rat proof plastic armouring around rat proof cabling. Why? Because it's a directive.

So what am I seeing on sale in France? 3 cables, no casing, no moisture barrier, nothing, just three plastic coated cables in a plastic armour sheath. Progress? Only in the EU.

Imagine my surprise (not), when I find the same plastic armouring in the wiring I'm ripping out of my workshops. It's so old the plastic is tearing apart and inside it????? 8 cables, plastic coated, nothing else.

The EU is a mess and the UK has no place in it. Mainly because the whole place is happy with it's mediocrity and is not happy to see UK ideas or advancements which might force them to change their standards and upgrade their systems.

You have to live it to understand it. Some day I'll take a photo of my German 3 way extension, bought in the 80's. It has two holes in it, directly accessible if you want to push something into it. Child protection? You need to buy that........

European bathroom electrical standards? A full powered socket in the Bathroom. Safety? Yes, it needs to be 1M from water. Stupid is as Stupid does...

And we want to try and make it work?

Don't be daft. Cameron has done the best thing ever. Because when the people of the UK see the politicians of the EU saying NO NO NO to every request the UK makes for tuning the EU to a more UK friendly mode, the people will realise that the main block of the EU have only one plan for the UK. Silent Cash Cow.

I respectfully submit that the UK is worth much, much more than that.

[KateLMead]

I couldn't agree more Suff, I thought Cameron's speech was good, only wish his intentions were sooner than later.. European Superstate, Federal State neither of which are admitted to until of late.. I watch these money grabbers at their meetings half of them asleep, reading Playboy or playing around with their mobiles.. They get £300 a day for attending, Remember the case of Madame Kinnockio who had been monitored probably like 90 percent of the rest of the chancers signing in to leave ten minutes later, as they do in the Lords.. She was not a happy bunny but she got away with it as Kinnockio got away with the shocking fiasco regarding accounts that he refused to make public. Get us out of the bloody pit, Doing so might just inspire the British to get some of that bulldog spirit that is all but None Existent these days.

[Suff]

European Superstate, Federal State neither of which are admitted to until of late.

Only by the British press. The European press has been up front about it for forever. All of those Sky owners, how many of you have tuned into Euronews? It's not a secret, it's not a mystery, we just haven't cared enough to actually listen to what is being said across the water. Yet another indication that the UK simply does not belong.

I think another key and important statement from Cameron's speech is that he acknowledges hat the UK can certainly get on alone in the world. It doesn't sound like much does it? But if you think about it, it is the first time since the Thatcher years that any PM has admitted it. The fact that he states that it "might" be in our best interests to stay in the EU rather than out of it was a VERY important point. Note it has not been picked up and nobody is running with it.

As regards timing, He's between a rock and a hard place.

First, he has to get through this government and win the next election..

Second, he has to prove, beyond an unreasonable doubt that he tried and the EU refused to play ball

Third this has to be planned and the world has to price in the possible impact. Only with years of run up to a UK exit will the markets be aligned so that there is no shock and that the UK economy is not impacted appreciably.

Cameron is not an idiot and people should understand that. Think Greece. Had Greece gone out of the Euro 2 years ago, the shock would have broken a large part of the EU. If it goes out next year, there will be a fuss and some rearrangement, but beyond that it will be "yawn, so what's new". It is all about timing and being prepared.

My only problem with this is whether the Tories will win another election. They will need to literally crush the Lib Dems in the next election. Blame will have to be heaped on them for stopping the reforms and actions the Tories would have taken to get the country back on track. The Tories won't be in the position of stabbing the Lib Dems in the back, they'll have to cut their head off and put in on a spike on the city gates. Let's see if they have the nous and the strength to do it.