War in Europe?

[cromwell]

I thought I had misread the paper this morning.
But no, the Daily Telegraph was quoting General Sir Patrick Sanders, Britain's Chief of the General Staff.
He said that now is oue 1937 moment and that we must be prepared to "fight and win" against Russia.
Pardon me, but where the hell has this come from?
This man is seriously talking about another war in Europe.
What are we going to fight with, exactly?
Successive governments have reduced the army year of year, we've got virtually no navy and half the RAF bases that we used to have have been sold off!
Fighting Russia? The EU's heart isn't in it. Macron doesn't want to and at bottom the Germans and the Italians don't want to either.
America? Maybe but I wouldn't bet on it.
NATO? Turkey won't fight and they are a member.
This is lunacy and it wants stepping on; hopefully dome MP will have the nerve to say so.

[Suff]

Elephant in the room. There is already war in Europe. We just won't recognise it.

If we think that Russia is going to stop with Ukraine if they succeed, then insanity is running amok in the UK. Because the only thing success in Ukraine will do with Russia is give them the entitlement to go attck the next one. Plenty of non Nato states kicking around on the borders.

It is the job of a commander of the Army to make the Government aware of the possibilities. Expanding war in Europe is an absolute consequence of Ukraine losing the battle with Russia. If he did not state it, then he would be as delinquent as the politicians who seem to think they can provide lip service, a few cast off's and then shrug and move on.

At least someone is saying what needs to be said. Because there is no way Russia will expand if they believe we are both ready and willing; to ensure this stops right here.

[Workingman]

Plenty of non Nato states kicking around on the borders.

Only Moldova in W. Europe, and it's on the western Ukraine flank. All the rest are to the East - Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the 'Stans, and all of them are former Soviet Socialist Republics. None of them are western friendly and are all authoritarian governments or dictatorships with poor human rights records. The west could not care less.

To get to non NATO democratic states in Europe - Austria, Switzerland, Croatia, Boz- Hertz, Serbia (with Kosovo), Malta and Cyprus he has to go through NATO countries first = War.

Not an option.

[Suff]

Yep I was thinking the stans. He doesn't have to go west to expand.

[Workingman]

Let's be honest, they are already Vlad's. They rely on him for 'security' and their economies. They are vassal states in all but name.

War in Europe is a whole new ball game.

We, Europe, the World, do not want to go there.

Talk, FFS!

[Suff]

Explain, please, what do we have to talk about?

Are we going to do what we did with Belgium and carve out a new country from two nation states? Personally I thought that in the post UN foundation years, we were supposed to protect and support national boundaries and use all pressure to force the aggressors to desist and leave.

If we talk now how much of Ukraine are we going to give up? Will the Ukrainians accept that? Will it end war or will it just cause millions to die over decades just so we can say we "talked".

There has to be something to talk about and right now the only thing we could possibly talk about would be partitioning Ukraine.

This is like giving Hitler Lebensraum.

So when we have something to talk about which has a viable end result I'm all for talk. I would prefer that we talked to Russia and allowed the army to withdraw than to enclose, crush and destroy them. All that will do is justify another arms race to allow Russia to try it again to "avenge" the dead.

Talk is a tool to be used when the right thing is ready to be talked about. Talk to reduce fear is just that. Talk.

[Kaz]

I don’t think that talking with Putin would do any good. He will just do exactly what he wants anyway - that’s what dictators do

[medsec222]

Couldn't agree more with that Kaz. I have heard many commentators on the television talk about 'getting around the table and sorting it out'. This is only possible when the two sides are determined to find a satisfactory solution, but I don't think Putin is likely to be deflected from his aims.

[Workingman]

I see.

So we let this war rumble on until one side is defeated or both sides fight to a stalemate - the Somme 2.0? Is that it?

If not, what is the other plan and how will it be achieved?

[Kaz]

I really don't know, but what good is talking to someone who has no intention of listening?